Ben Friedman: How He Launched Barstool Outdoors

Full transcript of the Tom Rowland Podcast, Episode 354, Ben Friedman...

Growing Up on Saltwater Experience

Ben Friedman: And the the number one show that we would ever watch was, like, Saltwater Experience. Me and my friend, we used to be, like he would be Rich Tudor, like, out of the Tom Rowland. Like, I'm not even kidding. Like, I'm so serious, and, like, it's it's amazing how much that shaped basically my whole life afterward.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's really awesome, man. That's a great story. And what makes it even a better story is that you've, you've made this happen for yourself, with Barstool Outdoors.

Ben Friedman: So you wanna be the outdoors guy. Is that am am I understanding this correctly? I am the outdoors guy. This is Ben Freeman from Barstool Outdoors, and you're listening to the Tom Rowland podcast.

Tom Rowland: Ben, what's up, buddy?

Ben Friedman: What's up, man? How are you? It's, it's honestly a huge honor to be talking to you. I know, you got a lot of stuff going on, but just from my perspective, I I know it's our first time meeting, first time ever talking. But as a kid in Missouri, like I grew up in St. Louis and like my whole family's like, been going down to the Keys since like the seventies and eighties. So I've, I've been kind of like in love with Islamorada since I've ever been born. And the, the number one show show that we would ever watch was like saltwater experience. And like, I mean, I can't even tell you. I used to literally stop everything every weekend. I think it was Saturday mornings on, OLN or versus there's I forgot Saturday or Sundays, but like my grandpa, my dad would tape them for me. I'd go over to their house to watch them. And, like, me and my friend, we used to be, like, he would be Rich Tudor. Like, I would be Tom Rowland. Like, I'm not even kidding. Like, I'm so serious. And, like, it's, it's amazing how much that shaped basically my whole life afterwards, because we'd watched the show Hawks. K you guys sitting there talking and it, when it was at World Wide Sportsman, upstairs, like all that stuff, man, I've seen it all. And it's like, it's like kind of mind bending to be talking to you right now. So I really appreciate you having me on.

Tom Rowland: That's really awesome, man. That's a great story. And what makes it even a better story is that you've, you've made this happen for yourself, with Barstool Outdoors. That's, how many years have you been doing that? Two two seasons?

Ben Friedman: Crazy. Yeah. So this is our second season. It's just finishing up on, this Wednesday, I believe. It's, like, tomorrow, actually. Sorry. The nineteenth. Time's flying, but, we've been working on it for probably three and a half, four years now just as, like, kind of an idea or a brand, if you wanna call it, in within Barstool. And, it's kinda crazy to see it come to fruition. I'm sure as you know, like, the first time when you had your shows and stuff, it's like everybody's watched, you know, fishing shows growing up, everything. And I think everyone who who fishes is kinda like, man, that would be fun. But actually making a show, it was such a different experience. And, like, obviously, you know, we're making something that's on YouTube and our website and all these things. I'm sure TV is even a whole another set of tricks, but it's just the process of it all is, like, a crazy experience, you know?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, there's a ton of people that I've talked to and I've seen kinda go through this whole process of wanting a television show or a a YouTube channel or whatever whatever it is right now, some sort of production. That's their dream. And usually, it doesn't happen. So what's the difference? How did you how did you make it happen? What did what did you do? I mean, I watched your I watched your your pilot, which was, awesome and hilarious and uncomfortable and many other things, which I think is one of the one of the biggest compliments that I could give you for what you're doing is is, like, you're pulling all that together. Like, there's it there's sometimes, it's uncomfortable. Sometimes, it's hilarious. Sometimes, it's it's, adventurous. Sometimes you can't believe what you're seeing. Like but, anyway, let's get we'll get to that in a minute. But let's get to how you made it happen. Like, from a kid in the pilot, it says that when you were a kid, you always wanted it. And then there's, like, clips of you being, like, you know, pretending you had a TV show when you were, like, really young. Right?

From the Dock to the Edit Bay: Learning to Shoot

Ben Friedman: That's what I'm talking about, my Tom Rowland impression. Like There

Tom Rowland: you go.

Ben Friedman: One's of me and as my friend on the dock and, and I'm right. We literally sit there and we even were gonna go to World Wide Sportsman that we were like trying to see if they'd let us film up there. We're like, do we need to do it just like they did it? It was so funny, but basically, yeah, I mean, it kinda all started with just filming us finishing. Like, I'm like I'm like, this is how you make a TV. Like, I would just tell my friend. I'm like, trust me, man. This is what we gotta do. You just stay in there. I'm gonna film you fishing, and then, like, we'll edit it. And, I'm kinda you know, I'm not sure if you know Skip Nielsen at all, but, for Islamorada, he's

Tom Rowland: a little bit more of a Yeah. Certain legendary dude.

Ben Friedman: Yeah. He's a guy that he's also done a lot of like, he's been featured on a lot of shows. And, like, when when I would grow up fishing with him, he would tell us the stories of him doing that. And I was like, Skip, how do we do it? You know? So, like, he we were kind of, like, always poking around, messing around, making our own little home movies. And then as I kind of got older, I got into production as far as, like, you know, like, I worked as a PA at a company doing just commercials or random things. Because I just wanted to know. I've always been obsessed with, like, capturing either experiences or, like like, I'm obsessed with sharks and fish and everything, and I always have been, like, how can I better capture what I think is so cool? When I see, like, a lemon shark, you know, cruise on the flats, I'm, like, that's the coolest thing my brain can imagine. How can I capture that and show, like, as many people as possible? So I got into, like, drones with the DJI Phantom, like, a pretty not entry level, but, you know, anyone can get it. And I started using that, and I would I bought, like, GoPros and Osmos and, you know, everything that you can kind of, like, start making your own stuff. And as I was doing that, I realized, a, it's a lot harder than, you know, you might think making a show. And, like, then as I kind of got, working at production companies and places where you learn, okay, this is how you go from an idea and a script to, like, a finished product. I started getting closer. And then in 2016, I stopped working at the production company and was kind of looking to do, like my friend was making all this money doing drone, real estate videos, and I'm like, I'm just gonna do that. And whatever it was, I was kind of in a transitional phase. And some people in my life, you know, as you can imagine, are sometimes like, hey. You gotta get a real job.

Tom Rowland: Right.

The Wallaby Pitch to Dave Portnoy

Ben Friedman: Is that you know, I'm sure you've heard that before or something, and it's like, I'm like, man, I don't what what am I gonna do? I'm not gonna be happy sitting in the office. So I was always a big fan of Barstool sports. I thought, you know, Dave was hilarious, and I thought the whole thing was very funny. And, like, I was like, man, they have hockey. They got, you know, football, basketball. They got people doing all these things, but they don't have someone that's doing fishing or outdoors or something like that. So I'm like, man, that's my favorite thing in the entire world at a place that I think I could fit in at as far as, like, it's very free form, open, you know, whatever. It's kind of like do whatever you want. And I I was actually fishing in Saint Louis. I remember because you know how some days when it's, like, so dead, you kinda drift off while you're sitting there and you're like I remember I was poking this little grub. I'll never forget. It was Busch Wildlife in Saint Louis. And I was, like, dancing it around these little, like, ledges on the thing, and I was, like, just nothing was eating. It was, like, late in the year or something. And I remember I was, like, I'm gonna do Barstool outdoors. Like, that was just the idea that popped in my head. And I called my friend who's a trout biologist in Idaho, and he was a Barstool fan too. We'd text about it, and I said, hey, dude. I'm like, we're gonna work for Barstool and do, like, fishing and hunting stuff. He was like, okay, man. Like, he, like, laughed at me. I was like, no, dude. Trust me. And he didn't believe me, and it was, like, one of those things I always give him shit for now, but I'm sorry. I gave him crap for now. But, anyways, I pitched the idea to him, and I went in with a a wallaby, actually, like a cousin of a kangaroo. And I walked in the office because I knew

Tom Rowland: that Wait. This is at Barstool?

Ben Friedman: Yeah. So I knew that the the main guy, the pres, Dave Portnoy, who's, like, you know, big time now. He's, like, on TV all the time, and he's, like, a huge, you know, figure on the Internet. But I just knew I'd been studying him because I was a fan of the website for so long. Like, he respects, like, a show and any sort of, like, crazy antics. So I was like, I I tried to get a tiger, but they wouldn't let me get it within thirty days. And it was so much money. Like, I thought you you were a tiger?

Tom Rowland: So this is your idea. This is how you decided you're gonna sell your show to Barstool. You're gonna get a Tiger and go into the office unannounced? Well

Ben Friedman: well, no. So I I made, like, a music video, but that's how they, like, kind of I got on their radar, which is a whole another story. But, like, he followed me from that. So I started DMing him. Hey. Can I get a a meeting? I just want a meeting. Please let me because I knew if I got in front of him, I could, like, really convey what my idea was. But on the Internet, it's so hard. Like, he's got, you know, bajillions of people reaching out to him. So I was, like, finally, he said, next Tuesday works. And this was on a Friday afternoon. And I remember being, like, next Tuesday, is that three days or is that the next I was, like, going so crazy, but I was, like, I gotta just go. So I drove from Saint Louis, and I was on the phone the entire way. It was, like, sixteen hours. And they wouldn't let me get the tiger. The only one I could even try to get was, like, $10, and I was, like, that's just not an option. So I settled. I was it was between a baby gator, an armadillo, and a wallaby. And I was, like, I think a wallaby will have the best, like I don't know. I just was, like, trying to do something crazy. So I walked in there, and the week before this, I had flown down to Islamorada because I was, like, I'm gonna I gotta shoot a pilot. And that wasn't even it never even went anywhere, but I was with this kid that I knew. Say same kind of thing. I was I was roping people and I'm like, we're gonna do this, whatever. And we fish with Skip for two days. It was, like, November. And nothing was biting. We got, like, you know, a seven foot lemon shark with not even that good footage. I was like, man, this is just not it. But I made, like, a minute trailer to show to him. So I kind of had, like, I'm like, this is my show, like, my proof of concept. My green hire me and just let me make fishing videos. So I basically went in with the Wallaby, and he was like, what is going on? You know, he's like, this is crazy. And then I showed him the video, and he was like, so this is it? You just you just made a minute long, you know, drone video of of of Florida and just, like, said Barstool Outdoors. And I was like, yeah. When you put it like that, I have to do what I did. But so, basically, he was like, we'll hire you, but you're gonna have to do other stuff first in the sense of I was making these, like, behind the scenes videos of Barstool and documentaries and, you know, stuff like that. Believe it or not, you can't just ask someone to fund you to fly around the globe to fish without even having any proof of concept. So that was something I learned, and that was good for me. You know what I mean? Like, you know, it's like, if they would've just let me do it then, it would've been a train wreck. So, anyways, I did that. And while I was making these behind the scenes documentaries for Barstool, I was constantly going out on every night and weekend that I could and just filming what ended up being Barstool Outdoors, but it was very covert because I didn't wanna you know, when you have a job, they want you to be working on the job, not like your other projects. So it meant so much to me. So I was like, I cannot mess this up. I have to just do it only by the book on the weekends in free time. So I would take, you know, other friends of mine that filmed or even, like, you know, friends and and family members even. And they would film me, and I would just be fishing or swimming with gators or, like, doing all these things. And finally, I kinda built, like, a grassroots thing, like, where I would make the Instagram, and the Instagram grew from I remember it was it, like it went from 13,000 to 30,001 day, then it went to 50, then to a 100. And, like, within Barstool, they would it would start to get more recognition. It's like, oh, this is, like, a real thing. Like, you guys have 400,000 Instagram followers, whatever. I was like, yeah. I'm trying to, like, make you guys believe that I can do this. So finally, after it was 2016 in December when I got hired, and it was July 2018 or no. 2019 when the show finally came out. And every single thing in between then, we were working on editing it, shooting it, everything. And I think it was, like, 2019, probably, like, April is when they've kinda gave me the go ahead to be, like, yeah. Make this show and put it out. And, you know, we had filmed almost everything before then, but that was kind of when it became real. And then we just promoted it and, like, edited it every day. Like, I mean, I'm telling you, we sat with that thing for months and months and months trying to make good and, like, it when it came to life, it was like it it was like as the kid who watched, you know, saltwater experience and everything every single weekend, it's like I came and imagine a cooler feeling. Hopefully, like, when my kids are born or something, but it's like I don't even know that that was the coolest thing of all time. My brain was, like, I didn't even know what to do next. I'm, like, I think I just made, like, a fishing show. This is the coolest thing of all time. You know? It was it was amazing.

Tom Rowland: So Well worth it. That's awesome, man. That's an awesome story. Tell me, like, when let's let's rewind a little bit. Like, when you go there and and you've got this minute trailer, and you've got a few minutes, and you've got a a wild koala bear in your lap or right? A koala no. A wallaby. You've got a wild wallaby in your lap, and you're dressed I mean, I saw the video. You're, like, dressed like a safari man. And, so you've got you've got this this person's attention, and you know it's a very fleeting moment. And he says, so what's the concept? What did you pitch him?

Ben Friedman: I basically told him, first of all, I was like, I I think the the number one thing I was trying to stress was, like, a, that I wasn't crazy. I was like, I'm crazy, but in a good way. I'm like, I'm not, like, psycho. So, like, I want him to know I when you hire someone, you have to know that they're gonna, like, actually work and be reliable. So you can't have just a psychopath. So I was trying to be, like, coherent, but also really stress the point that I was, like, you guys have this platform that you're currently not monetizing at all with, you know, the outdoor space. And there's such, you know I mean, it's, like, it's such an enormous market, but it's, like, because it's not the NFL or, you know, NBA, people may not recognize it as as big of a moneymaker if you're, like, a sports company. Because you're, like, oh, you know, like, we'll just focus on the things that are on ESPN TV every day. Like but, you know, bass fishing and and even just, like, hunting and fishing together is, like, I I have to go back and read the numbers, but it's one of the biggest markets of any recreational thing in the entire world. So I was really just trying to tell him, hey, you guys have this space that you could be in with fans that you currently are just leaving on the table. Let me go try to capture, you know like, people who listen to your podcast may not have heard of Barstool before. It's like, that's something that right now, I'm like, man, if I can get these people to at least know what we do, that's growth, you know. Like, it's it's so much harder to grow in NFL space and football where everything's so saturated. If Barstool is, like, not even in a market, I'm like, let me just go run a mock and try to get new fans and do these things, and I think it'll be really cool. I was, like, everybody loves animals and loves nature. Let me just go make stuff for you and show Barstool fans interesting original stuff. And, like, I was I think that was my main point. It was, like, let I I think that this is a market that we can grow in, you know? Because I think, like, business owners that you can't really go wrong with that. Right? Like, if someone told me, hey. I can get you more viewers or fans from a market you're not going. I'm like, oh, okay. Like, who's gonna say no to that? You know?

Working for Nothing and Moving to New York

Tom Rowland: Right. So it's interesting now, this risk maybe that they took a little bit kind of in the outdoors and with you seems to have paid off because of COVID. For one thing, there are no, all the all the other sports that we were talking about, there was no basketball or football. There might not even be any football this this fall. Are are they happy with with that, investment in time and energy and financially?

Ben Friedman: Yeah. And I the other thing too, I remember when you're talking about my pitch. I remember telling them too because I just knew also it's, like, I needed the opportunity and the platform more than I needed anything else. I was, like, I will work for nothing. Like, I honestly was like, I don't even need money. I'll, like, do something else because that platform is the most valuable thing in the world. Like, to get on TV like you did, it's like, it's very hard. I'm like, I need something where I can get people to watch this stuff because I was making fishing videos for forever, and nobody cares. It's extremely hard because there's a lot of good fishermen, and there's a lot of cool footage. It's hard to, like, get people's attention. So I was also, like, when you talk about an investment, I was, like, just let me have a year. I'll I'll work for nothing. And in my first contract to Barstool's, like, I was making nothing. Like, living in New York City at their offices, I'm telling you, like, for a New York City salary, it was, like, $0. But I was, like, in heaven because I'm, like, I don't care about money now because it's not even like, you could make, you know, $500 at some investment banking thing, but be no closer to having a fishing show, you know? So I was, like, I just need this platform. And I think when it came out and kind of all of the new, like, interesting feedback, they'd never heard before. Like, that scene with all the mullet and the lemon sharks going through it. Our CEO came to me, Erica, and she was like, I can't even believe this is on our website. Like, how did we, you know, whatever. I'm like, there's so many cool things that we can be showing because Barstool does a lot of humor, a lot of, like, you know, reaction videos or current events. I'm like, this is kind of evergreen content that's not, really what we're doing. So it kind of, like, showed them, hey, like, we're more multifaceted than just, like, podcasts that are just talking about sports, you know.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Ben Friedman: Yeah. So I would say they're happy, hopefully.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, man, so many people that listen to this podcast want to be fishing guides, or they want to open a retail business, or they want to follow their passion in some way, shape, or form. And I get I get tons of people. I seek those stories out because I think it's super cool when somebody does that. Like, they buck the trend or they do something, like, their parents and everybody else that loves them says, don't waste your time. This is a dead end road. Get a real job. You know? And often, it's the people that that are the closest to you, and they're well meaning. You know? They they mean well. They they really think, like, this is this is a pipe dream. But, man, you just laid out the secret to success in any field. Like, that you you burn the boats, and you just said, I'll I'll do whatever. And I think it's funny that that they told you you had to move to New York because, like, here you are. You're wanting a fishing show, which, you know, in your mind, all all your life puts you in Islamorada, and they say move to New York and get paid zero and off you go. Like, did you Right. Was there any hesitation there on your part? And, like, what did your parents think and everybody else around you?

Ben Friedman: I mean, first of all, New York City, I think it might be my least favorite place on earth, like in the entire world. I haven't been to some places. I'm sure there's more like gross places. I wouldn't like that I haven't been to, but where I've been, I think it's my least favorite place on planet earth. But the thing is too, so Barstool by its nature. Right? Like, the Dave's idea in making that New York office was making a kind of central hub for all of the content that would be, like, you know, all the personalities. Barstool kinda set up by the bloggers or, like, you know, video guys or whatever it is. It's kind of one big reality show. Right? It's almost like as if, like, they took Bud and Mary's and, like, all of the captains there, they go out and fish, but the show is their relationships between each other and the arguments and who's doing what. So that's kind of his idea. So I knew as well that, like, weirdly, being there was almost better for me outdoors wise than being anywhere else because I was getting exposed to an audience that, you know, the the people who follow Barstool, the true fans that are, like, really into it, they're, like, obsessed. So it's like being in that powder keg of of content all the time. I was getting exposed to new fans that, like, were, like, who is this kid? Who knows? Oh, he does, like, shark stuff. Like, it kind of helped me in that regard because even though New York's the least, like, you know, outdoors place of all time, I almost stuck out more there than I would have in some place where everybody's doing that all the time. So, like, in the Barstool office, they're like like, in stuff that you know, like, I'd go catch, like, a black tip and people are, you're crazy. Like, you know what I mean? It's like and I'm sitting there. I'm like, this is not crazy, but I wasn't gonna stop him. You know? I was like, yeah. It's so crazy. Right? Like, you know, watch this show. And it kind of ended up benefiting me. And when you say, like, any hesitation, I literally and and I've been in New York one time before when I was, like, a little kid, and hated it then too. And I was like, not even for a millisecond that I hesitate because I knew I'm like, I was living in my parents' basement, like, doing nothing. Like, the reason why I was fishing so much is because the drone business and everything, it was not booming. Like, I was not I'd make I wouldn't make enough money for, like like, to live off of for, like, a month. And I'm talking living in your parents' basement. No rent, like, you know, just for food and gas. I used to remember putting in I remember the the Chesterfield Parkway BP station right there. I knew the gas. If it was $2.30, I'd put in like, I'd get $10 from my mom, and I knew I had in my F-150, I had, like, 16 miles a gallon or maybe less. And I was like, if I get $10, this will last me, like, I can go to this lake and back four days or something, then I'll have to find more or whatever. Like, it was not, like, I was missing out on much as far as, like, opportunity. So the second they even opened the door, I'm like, I was actually living in the office for a period of time, sleeping on our CEO's couch in our office, and I'd have to set my alarm and wake up right before she would get there. So she wasn't like, what the hell are you doing? But it was all worth it because, like, I just knew that if I stayed on that path, I would a 100% get at least a chance to, like, put out something that would be in that realm. And that was my honestly, it was the biggest fast track too because how else like, if I tried to go to a network and say, hey, I wanna fish on TV. I mean, they would I would never even get a meeting. You know what I'm saying? Right. So it was, like, my only chance.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Wow. That's that's amazing, man. That's really, really super cool because, like, if if if when people ask, and I basically wrote an article a long time ago that was about basically what you just described. If you wanna be a fishing guide, you wanna be a mate, you wanna do whatever, walk it go where the fishing guides are, walk the docks, Do whatever necessary. Clean fish. Wash boats. Clean the toilet. Whatever you need to do to be there, and and they won't hire you. And it's like, of course, they won't hire you. And you need to keep going back and keep washing the the boat and keep doing the toilet and keep cleaning fish for free and living in your car and doing all this stuff, and then you keep doing that. And then one day, somebody doesn't show up, and you get this chance. And, and and there it is. And when you have that chance, you gotta be ready for that chance. So every single morning could be your chance. And then when you get that chance, you gotta you gotta perform. And

Ben Friedman: A 100%.

Tom Rowland: It sounds exactly like, I mean, what you did is such a cool story. So when you're that

Every Morning Could Be Your Chance

Ben Friedman: what you just said is the most true thing of all time where it's like, it's not even about do you get it? Like, do you show up and they tell you you can do it? I I was, like, filming. That's the funniest thing too, and I don't even like talking about it normally because I hated it at the time. I was literally filming the people in the office, like, the same guys I'm, like, contemporaries with now. Like, my job making those behind the scenes was, like and I would try to be on camera as much as possible because I was, like, I just want to gain I don't wanna be filming people. I wanna be in the video. So I was always trying to get even to the point where people would jerk me for it sometimes being like, oh, trying to get on camera again. I didn't care. I was like, I just was I would be filming people and editing. I would go, like, when when Dave, our boss, would go do something, I'd be like, hey, can I ride in the car and just film you just to, like, you know, get some behind the scenes, which has nothing to do with fishing? But I knew, like, the more I can be in those circles, and he knows that I'm, like, you know, a hard worker or get this or whatever. Like you said, like, if you're walking in the docks and scrubbing the boats and stuff, one day, the captain's gonna be sitting there and, you know, has a beer with you and talks to you and and, you know, asks you, hey, what do you wanna do? Whatever. And you're like, well, I wanna be a captain. He puts it in his head. It's like being in the vicinity of what you wanna do. I mean and like you said too, the day that somebody's not there, you have to perform. If you suck, it's gonna be tough. Right. You're gonna have to just, you know, wait even longer. But that's 99% of the battle is, like, just putting yourself in that spot and just working every day. And then people are generally, in my experience, sympathetic to people who work hard as well. If they see you grinding every single day, they're gonna wanna give you a chance regardless. You know what I mean? Because people are like, hey. And and how it happened too was one time I'm on the radio with Dave, the main guy, and Pat McAfee, who now has, like, 2,000,000 followers. He's like a superstar in the sports world. And we were in their office. I was videoing them just talking on the radio. But once again, I was in the room, whatever. And someone called in with some sharp question or something. They're like, hey, why don't you, you know, talk about it? I'm like and I'm right there. I'm like, oh, well, there it is. And all of a sudden, I'm on the radio with them, and that's it's just I I really think being around and just being, like, putting a style to your pride or dignity in the sense of, like, like you said, if you're scrubbing boats or cleaning fish, who cares? It doesn't mean you're doing that forever. Like, every single person that's doing like, I'm sure you did that. I'm sure everyone that's, like, big time was doing that at some level. I used to get people coffee and literally do anything that they wanted. And guess what? No one even knows that now, but that's just how you have to be around the situation sometimes until you can be the one that somebody's getting coffee. You know?

Tom Rowland: Right. And it's a it's a lot about having that can do attitude as well. Like, nobody's afraid to ask you because they know you're gonna say yes. Like and so the boss is like, you know, oh, we need somebody to drive us. That's gonna be a super pain in the ass. Get Ben. He'll do it. And and it's not like, oh, man. Yeah. Okay. Hold on. Let me finish what I'm doing. It's like, you need me to drive it? Yeah. Done. Where are we going? Fine. Give me the keys. I'm I'm there. And and that is the secret, man. That's the secret to to success, not in getting a fishing show, but in anything. I mean, it really is. It's it's really the key to to everything. It doesn't you know, ed put education aside, put, you know, all of these things that people think are their, either their strengths or their weaknesses. Put all that aside, and what what really matters is the attitude, in my opinion.

Ben Friedman: Right.

Tom Rowland: And that's how we that's how we've gotten so many of our captains and mates that have worked for us over the years. It's like, that's the can do attitude, man. And and even in the production, you know, like all the people that are are cameramen and and editors and everything, it's like and we've gone through a bunch of those guys, and and some have the attitude of, like, yep. Let's get it done. Like, we're we're all in this together. Let's get it done. And then some people don't. And you just move away from those people, and you move towards the people that are, like, the team players.

Ben Friedman: Right. And I think also one thing I learned as well doing that, like, I hated it. Let me be super clear. I hated filming every second because every second I was standing there holding that camera filming other people. I'm like in my head, it felt like almost just like it was like a rebellion in my head the whole time. I'm like, dude, you're gonna be stuck doing this forever. Like, it scared me the whole time. I'm like, don't let them make you the camera guy forever because you'll never get out. And I always had that in my head. I was very careful to be, like like, always looking for opportunities to do stuff. But when I was doing that, like, I would always notice, like, for instance, like, Dave, you know, that was who I would mainly be filming a lot of times. Right? He's the head of the company. He's the founder. He's the he's the star of the show. When we'd be walking somewhere, like, he'd be going to, you know we we do events or something. Right? And there's a million people outside screaming his name. We're walking in. Hey, Dave. Dave. I'd make sure to get all the stuff that would be, like, cool for him. Like, I didn't have have to be filming them, but in my head, I'm like, he's gonna like this. Like, my dad's always told me this too, and it's not about the requirements of the job or whatever. I'm sure this is, like, on your show too. It's, like, it's about making the person happy that you're working for as well. Doesn't have to make sense, but it's like, if this is gonna make him like me more, then that's gonna help me get a fishing show sooner. And that's just the reality. Is it right? No. Is it, you know, fair? But it's like, I try to get things, like, hey. And then I text him a clip. Hey, this is, like, pretty cool. You know what I mean? It's like and he knew that I was always actively looking for, oh, this is the good thing that he might like. That's where employers, like, you know, think about it. If if you had an intern, what would you want them to be doing? That's where I always try to be thinking. I'm like, okay. This will help him know that I'm, like, with it. You know? If if he knows that you understand what he wants, he may be quicker to give you more leash because he knows that you're not, like, off the reservation, even if it doesn't benefit you in the moment. You know?

The Hockey Mentality and Learning to Read the Boss

Tom Rowland: Right. So that that's really amazing for how old are you?

Ben Friedman: 28 now. I'm getting up there, man.

Tom Rowland: So 28. But when you're when you're doing all this filming and you're and you're that's '25, '24?

Ben Friedman: Twenty three, twenty four. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: So Yeah. It's pretty mature attitude for somebody that's 23 years old. Did that come from your parents? Like, where did that work ethic and that and this this drive for this opportunity, where did that come from?

Ben Friedman: I think, my grandparents both each started a business when they were, so they're they've been married, I think, for, like, sixty years, maybe I mean, they're gonna be mad at me for my grandma or aunt, as she likes me to call her, will be mad at saying the amount of years. So I'll just say a lot of years because she she doesn't wanna be dating. You know? She wants

Tom Rowland: me to be You just told you just told the world that she's she's been married for eighty years, so you could do some quick math. I don't think it's gonna be right.

Ben Friedman: I think it was more like, like, twenty years is what I meant. Ant, as she likes me to call her, she's gonna she's gonna whip my behind for that. But, anyways, basically, they both I think in the, you know, whatever decade, a long time ago, both each started a company, and they worked nonstop. You know, even when my dad was young, they'd be gone a lot in, like, you know, just one was a a company where they'd sell ads on radio. Basically, before you could even have the weather on your phone, you'd call a number and it would tell you the weather for the day. And while they had that, they'd grow, you know, callers and and they would sell advertising amongst the weather. Right? And he would go to every different, you know, radio station across the country and every different city and try to establish a thing. They just I mean and when you talk about work ethic, like, peanuts compared to that. This was, like, no guarantees, nothing, their own money, everything. And my grandma started a company where she was, doing, like, customer service training and kind of, like, how how to have your company have better, you know, phone relations, email, everything, you know, before email. But, basically, communications with customers how to be better. Right? And I think, like, I I'm like like I said, I would never try to put myself up there with them because they worked harder than I've ever worked in my life for way longer. But I think that's kind of the tone of what them and my dad have always, like, wanted me to be. So, like, when it comes to situations, like, you know, they've also been running businesses where, like, they see a lot of the there's a lot of unexpected difficulties as far as, like, dealing with, you know, either employees or, like, other things where, like, I see it from both sides, where I'm the employee, but I also see what the boss wants you to do. So it's like they've kind of instructed a little bit of that type of stuff. But honestly, the more I think about it, I think it's all just hockey. Like, I've played hockey my entire life. And one thing my dad's always told me, it's like, it doesn't matter if you should be playing on the first line. It's who the coach thinks should be playing on the first line is who's gonna play on that line. So it's like, it doesn't matter what you think or, you know, who scores in practice. You have to figure out how to get that guy to put you in that situation. That's the game. The game isn't whether you should be or not. So I think that's kind of where it comes from too. It's reverse engineering what the boss is gonna want to see, if that makes sense.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It does. And with a coach, that's I mean, so many people that that I interview on this podcast are successful, and it goes back to, you know, their their athletic background. Like, the hockey thing is really interesting to me and and trying to figure out how you can do what the coach wants you to do. That's a pretty tough concept for a young person, like a like a maybe a high schooler can figure it out, but, like, a grade schooler, I don't know. I mean, if you got that game figured out in grade school, you you that's pretty sweet.

Ben Friedman: Yeah. I definitely didn't have it figured out, but I just at least was aware of it and was trying to figure it out. But even, like, I played in college too at d three at a school and, like, even then that was tough. I was, like, struggling with, you know, I would I scored one night and was out of the lineup the next night, and you're sitting there being, like, you're going nuts. You're, like, what am I, like, supposed to do? Like, there's there's not always a clear set of, instructions on how something's gonna equal something else, and that always, how something's gonna equal something else, and that always was something that was tough. And I I didn't even figure it out then, you know. I was, like, 18 years old then. It's, like, Barstool was something where I was motivated to figure it out. And it's just, like, in a relationship too, you know. Now it's, like, my girlfriend, like, I don't even if I, like, make the bed and and make her, you know, food, it's, like, that doesn't necessarily mean you're gonna, like, be not in trouble for the right you just have to keep doing the right thing. It's, like, I've kind of, like, slowly are still learning. It's, like, it it's really just the key to anything with a relationship between a boss, between, you know, a friend. It's like, it's not always what's right. It's what's gonna solve the equation of them being happy, if that makes sense.

Tom Rowland: Well, it does. It's interesting. There's a book, what what is it called? Seven Love Languages or something like that. You ever read that book? And,

Ben Friedman: I've I've heard of it.

The Pressure to Top Season One

Tom Rowland: Yeah. It's it's all about, like, everybody's got this love language that, you know, that that's that's how they see. Like, if you do this for me, that's telling me that you love me. Right? And or your girlfriend or your wife or whoever. And you can be, like, acts of service or whatever, like, taking out the trash and washing the car and doing what you know, mowing the grass and doing all this stuff. But if that's not what she likes, it's it's nothing. Like, she's just like, oh, you just you like cutting the grass. I don't like cutting the grass. Like, what are you talking I'm trying to do something nice. Well, if you wanna do something nice for me, why don't you buy me a present? Like and it's like, oh, okay. But you're just speak I'm like like, you can like, what you were talking about there is kinda cool because you can be doing something, but it's not getting you anywhere that you wanna go because you're speaking the wrong language to the coach or you're speaking the wrong language to the boss or you're speaking the wrong language to your wife. That's pretty, that's pretty high level to try to figure that out and and then, in in turn, speak that language. It turns like it seems like that's exactly what you did at Barstool. Like, you kind of figured out, like, how to speak that language, how to do what was necessary to kind of make make people see you, like, as as legit and, and give you this opportunity.

Ben Friedman: And it's a constantly evolving thing too. Right? Like, even now. So one challenge that I've gone through recently is, like, after season one, in my head, I'm like, this is it. Like, I did it. I got the, you know, show. Like, I can't even tell you, Tom. Like, the day that I put out that Islamorada episode, the place that means, like, my entire life is, like, my favorite thing is Islamorada. And it's, like, people random people across, like, even, like, other countries, like, messaging me or or commenting or watching a video of, like, me fish. I couldn't process even how cool it was. So after that, you're almost sitting there. I'm like, I don't even know what to do next because I was and I struggled with it big time. Like, in between this, past, you know, the second season, the first season, the second season, that time in between was one of the weirdest times of my life because the goals and the dreams that you've been hoping for, all of a sudden, you don't even know what to want anymore. I'm like, well, it's never gonna get better than an Al and Rada episode that I took, you know, all the old footage, everything. So now I'm like, what do I do now? You know, do I just sit there and, you know, catch bass? Like, it's I didn't know what to do, and that was, like, something where even when you figure out, like, you know, when you're talking about languages to speak with, like, a boss or whatever, I also didn't know now. I'm like, oh, okay. I did good and they're happy with me. How do I now do something they're still gonna be happy with? Because they've seen this trick, like, you you can't just make the same thing over and over because I'm sure you deal with this all the time with their show. It's like, even at the end of the first season, I did, like maybe, like, we did one in Montauk that had a Mako shark and a Thresher, which to me is crazy. I'm like, that's insane. Then we were catching, like, sand tigers off New Jersey, and, like, I started to see people being like, oh, another week, more sharks. Like, this guy doesn't do anything different. And you're sitting there, like, wait. What? Like, I just like, I thought this was cool. You guys like the even when they like it sometimes. Even if someone likes what you're doing, if you do it at the same thing they like, they might be like, no. That's you we've already seen this. I'm like so that kind of started becoming a challenge too, and I'm still figuring it out. Like, this past season, in full disclosure, because of COVID, we had to limit some of the, you know, travel and filming, like, a lot of it. But to me, I just didn't think that I had enough variety on this one compared to the first one. So, like, that's something where I'm, like, hungry to do on the next season. I'm like, man, I have to, like, switch this up because you see the response. Like Mhmm. When when fans or or audience, you know, people viewing it are not as fired up, you're like, it hurts, you know. You're like, man, I gotta figure out how to get them back excited, you know.

Dealing with Internet Comments and Criticism

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's interesting. It's kind of that was one of the things I wanted to talk to you about. It's like the Internet's a fickle place, and then you also open yourself up to every person in the world having an opinion about you. And how how has that been to to deal with? I mean, that's something I don't necessarily have to deal with. Like, you put your stuff on TV, there's not a comment section below that everybody, anyone, and and you even welcome it. Like, leave a comment. You know? Well, some of those comments are not gonna be good. So

Ben Friedman: of them aren't good. How

Tom Rowland: have you dealt with that? Was that tough? Like, right away, man, I mean, like, you go from from wanting this fishing show to putting it on. Did I mean, I don't know how it was received or, like I mean, sometimes you can look through the comments, and there's just, like, one there that just stings. You're like, woah, man. I thought I was doing something really good. This person hates it. And, like, how has that been to deal with with all that kind of stuff?

Ben Friedman: I think it's been one of the craziest parts of my entire time on planet Earth is every single thing involved with, like, Barstool. I guess, just like any fans or or whatever you wanna call it, feedback from random people, however you wanna, like, specify that. In full disclosure, it is probably one of the craziest things I've ever dealt with in my life. And and let me tell you why. Like, first of all, like you just said, one comment that makes you mad. When the first show came out, right, I had this kind of, I had a good, extremely lucky tone at that time because I was, like, a Blues fan from Saint Louis. They had just won the Stanley Cup, and I had this, like, dancing chinchilla bit that I was doing all the time. And everyone was, like, you know, loving it. And that was that was, like, the luckiest thing. And and, also, I'm I'm fully aware too that if that didn't happen, season one might have gotten, you know, 30% as much views as it did whatever. I I ended up going from, like, on Twitter, it was, like, 50,000 followers to, like, a 100 something thousand. On Instagram, from, like, 10,000 to, like, 60,000. Like, this this whole blues thing ended up getting me exposure. I would've and it was all luck if they lost in the first round. I mean, it's not all luck in the sense of, like, if you caught, like, a 25 foot hammerhead off one of those bridges that was a world record breaker that got all over every it's not it's it's somewhat luck because you fish there a million times and haven't seen it. But the fact that you were there to capture it and and knew how to catch it and record it the right way was what, you know, your skill part of it. Mhmm. And that's kinda what it was. The fact that they won the Stanley Cup insanely lucky, but I was there working every second and trying to think of funny stuff and dancing and doing all these funny things to capture the moment. Right? So then when that happens, right, everyone's kinda on my side. It was like, Saint Louis was, you know, oh, everyone loves you. The Barstool fans were like, what a story. And I had had the outdoors episodes done before that. We were supposed to release them in May and pushed it back because we're like, well, this blues run. We don't wanna kill this, so let's just let this go. It goes all the way to game seven Stanley Cup finals. They win. I was on the ice after. It was, like, literally, I was in the parade. It was literally the luckiest thing. Like, think about it. I was literally to be, like,

Tom Rowland: that had to be, like,

Ben Friedman: a thousand people.

Tom Rowland: That had to be, like, a a dream come true. I mean, even more so than having a fishing show. Like, you're a hockey player. Now you're on the ice after the Stanley Cup. Crazy. That's unbelievable.

Ben Friedman: It it was. And and the other thing too is the fishing show I literally, like, worked on for a billion million hours and, like, was, like, losing my mind over, so I knew how that happened. When I'm on the ice at TD Garden in Boston, like, with the Stanley Cup, like, granted, I wish I was in a uniform playing, but, like, as like you said, as a hockey fan, I'm like, other than if I was in NHL, it was the coolest thing hockey wise you could possibly imagine. And that one is even crazier because you're like, I don't even really know how I got here. This is crazy. So when that all happened, we go to then release outdoors, which I knew the whole time in my head. I'm like, I think people are gonna, like I just knew. I was like, if they don't like this, I don't even care because this is as good as I got. Like, I'm trying as hard as I can. Right? So when that came out, it overwhelmingly positive response because of kind of on the heels of everything that had just gone on. And this is something that I've learned too with Internet stuff as well. When you talk about comments, kinda comes in waves. Right? Mhmm. Like, sometimes everything you do, everyone's like, oh, you're, you know, stay hot, all this stuff. You're doing great. And sometimes even when you're doing stuff you think is good, it will be negative no matter what. So it's like you you somewhat learn that and kind of can anticipate. Like, I know sometimes when I put something out, I know people are gonna, you know, say negative stuff. Doesn't make it less frustrating, but at least it's not, as shocking. Right? And so when that came out, I think I I I didn't read the comments or read it. There's, like, a whole barstool Reddit where they just, like, talk about you as, like, imagine if they would, like, take one of your shows, like, you guys are catching tarpon off, like, you know, seven mile bridge or something, And they just dissect the entire thing, and they're like, well, Tom thinks he's so funny, like, talking about this. Like, he's so self absorbed when he said this. They go through and, like, say that for everything in the whole episode. And you're sitting it will literally cause you to lose your mind. Because they used to do it for stool scenes that I used to do, like, the behind the scenes stuff. They'd be like, wow. Why if he's so arrogant? Or what a, you know, piece of crap he thinks this. There was actually and this is like, I'm getting deep in now because I forgot about this 2017. I have, like I don't know if if this is gonna be on video or, like, if you're gonna put it out. But I have, like, my eyes these are just my eyes. I don't know. People used to say that I I did pills because my eyes are baggy or something. Literally, I've never done any drugs in my life. On God, I've never done them. Like, for some reason, like, I drink, but I just I never even smoked weed. That's just I don't know why I don't do it. Nothing against people to do. That's just, like, whatever. But people now are on the Internet. This is when I first started working there. They're like, yeah. He he does, like, pills, whatever. And I'm sitting there reading this. I'm like, what's going on? That, like, this is crazy. Then I had people, family members, and friends from Saint Louis being like, hey, dude. You okay? Like, all this stuff. I'm like, what are you talking about? I didn't do anything. Like, I literally just came at work. Like, what is going on? And that's the type of stuff that really starts making you crazy because a and these are anonymous people on the Internet. Like, anonymous. There was times where people would write stories and comments being like, yeah, I met YP in the bathroom at, this bar, and he was doing this. On my life, on my mother's life, unbelievably fabricated. And it makes you angry because you wanna, like, set the record straight. But that only calls more attention to stuff and makes you look crazy. It is an impossible game to win. Like, if you can even tell through my tone right now, it's like, how do you how do you avoid that? It's insanity.

Tom Rowland: So so does some of the people at Barstool, some of the other personalities there, the boss, like, to some of the other people kinda coach you through this? Like, this is a new thing. Like, what? I don't understand what these people are saying, why they're why they're saying this or what. Like, do you get some help from other people?

Ben Friedman: Yeah. You can somewhat. But it the craziest thing is, like, I mean, people there, like, we I had a girl that, worked with us there that I'm good friends with. People would post pictures of, like and these are random anonymous people, so it's really hard to stop them. But people would post pictures of, like, random girls' pictures from the Internet and be like, oh, this is like a naked picture of so and so. And she's sitting there being like so that's, like, even a worse level of, like so I don't even have it that bad. Right? Like, crazy people on the Internet are the levels of crazy they get to is more than you can imagine. Like, I I don't even get it bad. It's like so that that's one of those things too when you're talking about other Barstool people. I saw other people going through it, I guess, and I kind of learned. And it still happens to this day. But I guess the biggest thing that I've learned too is you can talk about it or give advice or get advice. Until it's happening to you, it's almost impossible to to prepare for. Because when the comments are about you and and it's it's different levels sometimes. Right? You know, like, I would do a video and someone says it's, you know, bad or you're the worst. Right? Okay. That's frustrating because you care about your video, but you can all be like, man, screw you. Like, I I made this because of this. And I think, like, for instance, when I made, like, a video I'm trying to think of one. What was the one the other day? Like, we did one of bass fishing that I was like, man, I've always wanted to make a bass fishing episode. This is cool. Some people are like, oh, this is boring. Like, you know you know, go back to sharks, whatever. I'm like, okay. Like, that sucks that you didn't like it, but I know why I did it. So it doesn't really bother me. I'm like, I think this is cool and this is whatever. When people start talking about you personally, I think that's something that is I still to this day almost have I'm not gonna say no defense. It's extremely hard to not react to that. And I I don't even mean reacting publicly because I never respond. I never comment, do anything because that's I mean, you're you've lost at that point, then they have you.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Ben Friedman: But in my brain, react. Right? Like and there's been things full disclosure too. The weirdest things with Barstool, the the personalities, I guess, you could call it of the website, People get are are such fans of it. It's almost like a sports team where it's like, when something's going on in your personal life, like, you know, I went through a time where I had broken up with a girlfriend that I, you know, had dated for a while, and people start commenting about that online. And that is, like, one of the worst things you could possibly go through because, like, you know, your your personal life is extremely, you know, who's gonna know even my friends don't know the full story of stuff sometimes. And it's, like, you got complete strangers going off of Instagram pictures or, you know, bits and pieces of things they've heard over the years. And all of a sudden are making a judge of your character as a human being and saying outrageous horrible things about you sometimes that are like, man, this is something that I can't really let slide, but you can't do anything about it because it's just running rampant. And that is like, I don't wish that on anyone. And when celebrities go crazy, like real celebrities, and you're like, man, like, who cares? Like, they have all this money. Why do they care? I can't even imagine. I've gotten one one millionth of that type of feedback of crazy stuff. If someone was talking about your wife and your kids or something or making things up, oh, man. It it it makes you legitimately start losing your mind. Like, when people talk about mental health and stuff, it's like, that is not easy to stay even keel when people are talking about you as a human. Right? Like, if someone talks about your show

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Ben Friedman: Hey, man.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. You don't like the show, you don't like the show. But you start talking about the character, and you start you start making assumptions about someone's character and how they behave and how they do these things, it's like, man, that's you you don't know. You don't know those people.

Ben Friedman: Especially when it's people you care about too. Right? Like, it's like people who, you know, you you really care about, and you're like, man. Or like other people get dragged into stuff and they make comments about people who are just, you know, involved with you that never wanted to have mean things said about them. That's something that's almost impossible to defend against because how do you let that roll off your back? Like, that's not fun. You know?

Tom Rowland: But as soon as you as soon as you answer that comment, like you say, they got you. And and no amount of whatever whatever no no amount of I learned this, I guess, really, really early in the Internet on a message board one time to defend a boat of of all things. Like, I went in there

Ben Friedman: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Looked at this comment about this boat, which was wrong, and I'd set the record straight. And I thought I did. And it didn't get set straight because I can't stay up late enough. And the somebody can always stay up a little bit later, and then whatever you say, now they snipe you from the you know, there's there's one more comment. And then you go back in there, and you start getting back and forth with somebody, and they always have more time than you. They always do.

Ben Friedman: Right.

Tom Rowland: And they'll always have the last word. And and that I was glad that that happened really early when the Internet was young because I don't really, participate. You know? I don't I don't good or bad.

Ben Friedman: The only policy that's that works. Yeah. That's the only one.

Tom Rowland: Do you even read the comments?

Ben Friedman: So I I stopped. This was August 2017. I remember very specifically, someone from Barstool higher than me told me to blog something that I had tweeted. They're like, hey. Throw that up on the blog. I threw it up. There was an entire Reddit thread being like, oh, y p thinks that, he's so funny. Like, so this guy's the worst. And I'm sitting there. I'm like, I didn't even wanna they told me to put this on Skype. And from that moment forward, I realized. I'm like, okay. I I was there was a weekend too where it was so bad. I made a joke with one of my friends I was texting from Barstool, and there was, like, a 100 comment thread talking about how I'm the worst person in the world. For something you you was, like, not even anything. I didn't sleep the whole weekend from Friday all the way to Sunday. Did not sleep either night. I was, like, sick to my stomach. Right? And this is also my first six months there, whatever, where you're, like, you're not used to it yet. You get a little bit better as it goes on. And I was I was nervous because Barstool fans are everywhere. Like, when you walk around the streets in New York, people say what's up all the time. I was nervous to go to the gym. I was nervous to go to a bar because, like, you don't want it's weird. I've had people that luckily, this hasn't really happened to me bad, but I've had people I work with. One of my friends was with a girl that he's on a date with, and he's walking down the street in New York. Someone's like, hey, f you. And and he's like, this girl's like, what's going on? Like, it it gets in your head. It's not fun. And and, like, it's it's a lot like playing on a sports team where if you're losing or something, people are gonna let you know about it. And whether you say it affects you or not. Right? Like, I I have friends that, I played with growing up like hockey that are now in the NHL. Right? And I see these people write things about them that are like, he's just lost, and he doesn't have it anymore, this or that. They see it. Like, everyone sees that stuff. If there was articles, like, if me and you played for, like, the Dolphins and, like, there's a article at the top of the sports section, like, Tom Rowland, you know, he just can't stop throwing interceptions. When you drop back, it might be right here in

Tom Rowland: that head being It's in there somewhere.

Ben Friedman: Don't throw another pick. You know?

Tom Rowland: It's where you see, like, some of these elite athletes like a Tom Brady or somebody that just just goes through all of that stuff and and just Yeah. Somehow just has has made peace with it, and it's just like, I'm not playing for those people. I'm playing for me, and I'm doing this for myself. And and I'm going to stay on this path, and I'm gonna do the things that I think that I need to do. And, you know, whatever happens, happens pretty much.

Ben Friedman: Yeah. So that that's been my method now. So from that day on, I stopped reading all of them together until and this is where it's dangerous. Right? They know it's it's like any sort of thing. They know how to get you back in. So when I put out the first season of outdoors, obviously, it was, like, something I really cared about. So someone told me, oh, every everything's so positive. It's crazy. The comments are so nice. So what happened? Just like a fish, they started chowing me back in. I start taking little it's like I'm back in the slick, taking little pieces, little pieces, then I start getting closer closer. And that's when they get you with, like, the gap or something. So I started getting a little closer, and then I got burned again with everyone started, you know, shouldn't hurt, you know, crabbing on you all the time. And that's when I was like, okay. I'm done for good. Because it it does suck you back in because the thing is you wanna believe them when it's nice. You're like, oh, yeah. I'm doing good. These guys are right. I trust what they say. And then when it's wrong, you wanna be like, well, I don't care what they say. So I tried to, you know, be like, I don't care if they say I'm the best thing in the world or the worst thing. I'm not taking it into account at all. So now I've gone back to just being like, I care about like, if my girlfriend or my girlfriend's dad, you know, if he's like, this episode is terrible, that's what I care about. I I have a very limited amount of people that I care what they say. And other than that, it's I've shut it off like you said, because that's a healthier way to live. Right? Like, online world is very toxic place overall.

What He Wanted Barstool Outdoors to Be

Tom Rowland: Can be. Yeah. For sure. I mean, you can you can the positive is nice. You know, it's nice to hear those things, but then, you know, you're right. It gets in there. It gets in there, and and no matter what you think, it it it is affecting you in some way, shape, or form. Let's talk about 100%. Your idea about about what you wanted this show to be in the beginning because I watched a number of episodes. And first of all, I think it's hilarious. I I really I find great humor Thank you. In a lot of in a lot of the things. Like, when you were with the Python cowboy, which is somebody I need you to help me to get in touch with, that def that I've I've been in touch with him. I want him on the podcast really bad. Very interesting.

Ben Friedman: I'll get him on there tomorrow.

Tom Rowland: That's very interesting. My boy. That's my dude. I really I really He's

Ben Friedman: so funny on it.

Tom Rowland: I know he would be. And and he's just so funny in his videos. But anyway, you were funny in those things, and and you're getting bit by snakes, and you're you're doing all kinds of craziness. And and, but there's some humor. Like, even in the pilot, the pilot was maybe the it might have been the funniest one that I've seen yet because there were some intensely uncomfortable moments with you and Skip. Like, everything you've ever heard or read about about grumpy Islamorada guides was was in that episode. And, those moments with Skip were were serious, man. Like, how did you decide to leave those in, on on the first episode? Like, I mean, I I could see you kinda being, like, no. No. Like, I've wanted to fish with this guy always, or I've fished with him for a long time. Like, that's not getting in the episode.

Ben Friedman: Well, first of all, I wanna make the most clear thing of all time. This was child's play. Like and it's and I don't anyone Skip Nielsen is, like, my idol of all time. Like, he's, like, as far as human beings that I just fully accept as, like, this is someone who I just think is the coolest human in the world. Skip Nielsen is one of my favorite people that's ever walked this entire planet Earth. So let me say that, first of all, he's been, like, when I was watching Saltwater Experience and stuff, like, you guys were, like, I I didn't know you, but I, like, looked up to you from that. Skip is someone I've known since I was a little kid, and, like, he's, like, the guy that when I was, like, 10 years old, like, I'd be nervous to walk by him on the dock and Bud N' Mary's because I'm, like, oh my god. That's Skip News. And when we fish them, me and my friend John, we'd literally be doing, like, push ups the night before being, like, we gotta be ready for Skip. Like, he's, like, my idol. Right? So I just wanna say that first of all. And I in my mind, for my money, I would put money on him to outfish anyone in the entire world. I think he's a cyborg. He's a machine. So let me say that first of all. So all that being said, these were the most PGG rated moments of all. I wish we got the better stuff. It this it makes me mad. And Skip's not like this to random people, but me and John have I've literally learned to fish from him, my grandpa and him, since I was a little kid. Right? So he sometimes still thinks of us as little kids as like, you know, we used to do dumb stuff or not set the hook hard enough, whatever. I'll never forget the first time I went out with him ever. He used to have he was the only guy I knew those beautiful, you know, gold Penn International reels too too when I was a little kid and, like, he told me to set the hook one time. I'll never forget. This is my first time out with him. My friend John's dad knew him from, like, the eighties. It was the only way I even got in with him. So I went out with them one time. He's, like, set the hook. You know, I'm like a little kid from Missouri. Like, you know, we caught sharks off the dock, but I'd never been, like, big time with him. He's like, set the hook. I told you, you know, like, in his voice. He's like, what are you doing? He grabs the whole rod. I'm I'm a little kid and yanks it back with the hardest hooks that I've ever seen and smokes me with the gold Penn International in the mouth with the reel. You know how heavy those reels are. Right? And I'm like, fine. So then he's like, yeah. That's that's the what I'm trying to tell you. I'm sitting there finding this fish granted. I'm on the bow facing out. I got tears in my eyes. I'm trying not to let Skip see it. My mouth is I have literally, like, in bleeding bloody lip. I'm like, have tears. I'm trying not to let him see that I'm like, He smoked me in the face with the thing, and he's, like, come on. Like, stay on. I'm no slack. Like, all this stuff. I'm, like, as a kid, like, when I'm before I knew that that's what I wanted to be as far as, like, like, good enough for him. I'm like, I hate this. So, like, this guy is so mean. Like, this is the hardest thing. It was never, like, fun or relaxing to fish with Skip when we were kids because he just wanted us to do the things the right way. And sometimes, being a lazy, you know, 12 year old, I'm like, I don't know. I just wanna, like, you know, show up, catch the sharks, and go home. But no, man. He really molded me as like this. He's like, if you wanna be a good fisherman, this is the level and this is how you're gonna have to do things. If you you can't go, he he he would never show up and be like, yeah. I got a little bit of bait. He would have the whole cooler full of the best bait, and then he would go to the first thing we did is, like, we gotta go an hour earlier than you wanna go because I want fresh bait. He has a level of excellence that is that's what it needs to be. Right? Like, so that's kind of like, I always gave him the benefit of the doubt because I know what he wants us to do. Right? Like, as far as just be good fishermen. So when we started to do this episode, right, I didn't wanna tell the, like, Skip Nielsen story as far as, like, oh, like, he's a nice guy or catch fish. I wanted that rawness because to me, it's one of the most unique things as far as him. Like, he he's amazing at catching fish, but a lot of guys catch fish. I wanted to show, like, our relationship as well. Because that's, like, what if I'm doing a pilot, it's, like, this is how I learned to fish. Like, when I messed when he's like, you're backing over the net. Like Oh

Tom Rowland: my god. That was that's the moment I'm telling you is the most uncomfortable moment of the whole episode. And you're just sitting there like, I just I just bumped the throttle just, like, just a little bit. And he's

Ben Friedman: And that was nothing. I'm telling you. So me and my friend John, we used to draw like straws. We used to literally do rock, paper, scissors of who was gonna drive when he was cast netting because we were like, you just get your head ripped off. Like, I would literally be doing When I tell you, Tom, like, on my life, I was trying as hard as I can. And if you would mess it up a little, he's like, oh, well, guess we'll have no bait today. Like, you know, I'll just use lures. Like, he'd so I wanted that in there because I think that to get back to the original question sorry. I get talking about Skip. He gets me going because he's an inspiring person to me. But as far as Barstool Outdoors and what I wanted it to be, right, in that first episode, I wanted to be the realistic experience of fishing that there is. Right? Like, in the sense of there's a lot of shows where, like and, you know, I've done some like this since then where it's, like, hey. We need the fish. We need this. Like, it has to be, you know, like, even if we gotta catch one and act like it took thirty minutes, like, you always there every fishing show has that struggle as far as, like, actually producing content when it's such a randomized thing. Right? Like, I'm sure you've had so many days where you're like, oh my god. We have the camera here, this, that, and just is not happening.

Tom Rowland: Oh, yeah.

Ben Friedman: But I really wanted to kinda tell the story of, like, when we go fish with Skip and I back over the net, I want that in there because to me that's relatable and super real and raw. Right? Like, if everything about it, like, when I put the anchor away horrible and he's, like, mad at me, like, I think that's so funny because it's, like, when you're out with your friends and someone's, like, hey, can you go grab the thing? And they're, like, you know, on their phone or, like, drinking. You're, like, hey, dude. Are you gonna grab? Like, I think that's a very relatable real thing, and I just wanted it to be the most true to form capturing of the fishing experience. And I thought Skip, like, those moments to me are the funniest thing too because I also was like, people aren't showing this a lot of times. Like, I kind of thought I'm like, this is something we can do on Barstool that you may not be able to do on, like, a network Right. If they want it more buttoned up. You know?

From Self-Funded to Sponsored: Growing the Budget

Tom Rowland: Yeah. For sure. For sure. And and you've, so so from that, the pilot now, and even the first season. Like, you you get through the first season, and it's successful. And so what did the budget grow? Did did did the leash get a little bit longer? Did, like or or did did it tighten up, or did the leash get a little longer as you're going on in the first season to where you're like, hey. Look. This is something kinda cool I wanna do. It's gonna be a little more expensive. We're gonna have to fly here. We're gonna have to do this. Like, is it growing for for that? Like you even said for season three, you're you've got you feel like you need some more variety. You feel like, you know, a lot of that comes at a pretty significant cost in my experience.

Ben Friedman: I know. Yes, sir. A 100%.

Tom Rowland: So is it is that growing?

Ben Friedman: It it's interesting. Right? Like, so I thought that first of all, the first season I funded the I funded every single thing out of my own pockets and, like, the guys who film oh, a 100%. The guys who filmed with me, they paid for it out of like, when my friend Logan came to Islamorada to film that pilot with me, like, he paid for his own flight. Like, he didn't even get anything out of that other than helping me do it. Like, my friend Rudy came to Montauk with me to film this. This kid is a a hockey player. He's a doofus. He's one of my best friends. I love him. He never filmed anything in his life. He's my friend. And that's why that one has, like, water droplets all over the camera. I'm like, hey, dude. Can you, like, notice this next time? He paid for those Airbnb and the train tickets out of his own pocket. Everyone that was helping and that's why that season, it's, like, it's tough to really replicate that. It's, like, making an album before you had, like, a label or something. It's, like, that was the most grassroots thing. The only episode, the sturgeon one in British Columbia was the last one we filmed in April, like, twenty sixth maybe of, of last year. That one was paid for by Barstool because outdoors was kind of, like, happening at that point. So they were like I was like, hey. We have this chance to go do this trip. Could we do this? That that one they paid for, and I'm super grateful for that. And I'm I'm the first one to be grateful for Barstool helping me. So I'm not saying that, but I am also proud of the ones. Like, the Alabama noodling one. We flew to Atlanta on a Friday night, drove from Atlanta all the way to Calera, Alabama. I think it was, like, Bozos Fish Camp. It was called in the middle of nowhere. I got a ticket because it was like we got in at midnight and had to be at the dock at, like, 6AM or something. We drove I mean, Atlanta to Alabama is what? Like, three hours maybe? I'm trying to think of whatever it is. Two and a half, three hours. I got a ticket in Georgia. Had to pay a bajillion not that that's anybody's fault, but it's, like, you know, through the process of doing all these things and getting to this place and doing that, the hotels, we paid for everything. That was the coolest thing ever, and it and it made me hungrier too. Because when you're putting your own money in, there's not a dime wasted. You're like, man, I'm gonna make this count. So that is one thing that I'm grateful for. Now when we went to do season two. Right? Season one, great response. They're like, oh, there's gonna be so many sponsors. That's the first thing I would say that's different, from season like, after you start to do stuff with a little more, budget or attention or anything. The first thing that happens is everyone comes to you and their brother with wild things. Oh, you're gonna be on Discovery Channel. You're you're gonna get this. Everyone wants to sponsor it. Everyone wants to I'm sitting there in last, probably, like, August being like, man, we're gonna be on Netflix by December and we'll have this. I'm gonna get a brand new book. None of that happened, but everyone tries to tell you at the beginning, this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. You're gonna be this. You're gonna be that. And it's hard not to be excited when people we had meetings like, oh, like, someone reached out. We wanna make a, show for you on Discovery Channel. You know, I'm, like, sitting there. I'm, like, man, this is awesome. Make a couple, you know, fishing thing. I'm, like, man, this is the coolest thing ever. And then you realize, okay. Hey. It's gonna be a lot harder than that. And none of these things like, there's a lot of people that say things. It's very easy to have people interested, and it is 99.9% of the battle is, like, everything after that. You know what I mean? As I'm sure you know. That was the first thing was adjusting to okay. Wait. There's a lot of noise, but a lot of this means nothing. Right? So then when we finally started getting sponsors, you're like, okay. It's hard because there was other sponsors that I'm sure you've gone through this. It looks like they're gonna do it from the entire way. Yeah. And then at the last second drop out, it's almost insulting. You're like, wait. I thought we were gonna do this stuff together, and now you're not. So that's why, like, Labatt Blue and Dude Wipes, like, I'm riding with them for life. The people who ended up sponsoring me, it's like, you know, you it's like family at that point. You're going in on something together. It's like, hey. I will do I will fight for you because you believe in what I'm doing? Okay. Done deal. I'm I'm yours. So when that happened, we got those two sponsors, and I think that was, like, December. Right? December to January, it started being finalized. This is this past year. So with a fishing show, as you know, it is not you can't just go film somewhere for a week and have a season. That's not how it works. It's very tedious as far as planning, as far as, like, okay. Say you got a film from January to March. Well, there's gonna be places that you can't go do stuff at at that time. So you're a little bit limited. Right? So when this started happening, there was a lot of, people, like, kind of in my ear too being, like, oh, you're not doing anything now. Because, like, when I started doing barstool doors, I didn't have to do the behind the scenes documentaries anymore. Biggest come up of my life. I'm so happy. But then when the season ends and you're sitting there, people are like like, I was doing my radio show on Sirius, but it's like other it's one hour a day. My boss and Dave, they're like, well, you don't even do anything. You just sit there. And I'm sitting there being, like, I've just talked to this alligator gar guy, talked to this dude in California. I'm, like, trying to line up a three month travel schedule. I'm not a travel plant. Like, I don't know how to do any of this stuff. I'm sitting there calling every god. Gods only have so many days, then they're, like, well, this may not work for weather. So it's a window versus a date. I'm losing my mind. And they're sitting there being like, well, when's this gonna be done? I'm like, I don't know. So that was the first thing that kind of changed when you go from no budget to having a budget due to, like, you know, getting backing from Barstool and everything. It becomes a lot more regulated in the sense of, like, hey. We need like, how many episodes are done right now? And you're sitting there, like, I don't know. They're not like, we went to film I'm trying to think what it was. We filmed a few of them at the beginning. Fish for fifteen hours on these days, but didn't have an episode. You come back and they're like, k. So when will that one be ready? I'm like, I don't think this is done. Like, we're gonna have to go do it's almost, like, worthless. You're like, I'm gonna have to go do a whole another day. And guess what? The captain's gonna cost the same whether it's, you know, you catch 50 fish or zero fish. That guy's gotta get paid. So that the stress of that was the first thing I start experiencing when you're like, oh, man. This is not a fun this isn't for fun anymore. This is a very much a job where you're like, it's almost like playing hockey for fun versus when you're getting paid. And if you're gonna if you don't score, you're gonna get cut. It's like, that's what it felt like all of a sudden. Like, when I would be going to set the hook, like, we'd get a bite on some of these things, and it was more nerve wracking than it was, like, happy. Right? Like, you get a bite and you're, like, if I miss this fish, this is gonna be $3,000 down the drain. Oh, man. I started to learn that very quickly, and that's why I have so much respect for guys like you and guys that have been doing this for a long time where you're like, dude, this is a business. It is not a messing around thing. And the other thing too, I would love to get your thoughts on this too. I also have a million questions for you, by the way. But I think as well, I would love to know what you guys think about, like, it becomes something where I don't know how to say less fun, but it's like you almost go from, like, loving to fish to almost being, like, just stressed out the entire time. Like, it's it's such a different atmosphere.

Compartmentalizing the Job: Guide, Producer, Performer

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, it is. It's it's very much a different atmosphere, but I think that that Rich and I were we did well with that because it's, you know, from my background and his background, it's very easy to compartmentalize things. Like, I like to fish myself. I like to go fishing, and I like to go out there and actually be the one to catch the fish. That's really fun. And I like, but then I'm a professional fishing guide, which you're in the back of the boat, and you no longer are the one catching the fish. And so I had to learn early on in my career that there's an equal amount of skill or even a greater skill in being able to communicate through your customer and have them catch the fish because of the words that you're saying and the way that you're positioning the boat and the choices that you're making and the preparation and the, you know, the homework that you did and all that goes into that person catching that fish and and, obviously, having a really good time doing it. Or, I guess, other guides also have a really terrible time as they're screaming at their at their customer, but, whatever.

Ben Friedman: Right.

Tom Rowland: Then as we moved into the tournaments, man, that was really nerve wracking. And the first tournaments that I did were just the little, red bone tournaments in the Keys. And that was Mhmm. That was interesting, but it you it wasn't putting it on the line, like, later in the story. And I mean that because you would donate a day to the red Redbone, but then you get paid for a day. So it's two days of fishing, and then they started doing the Superfly before that. So you're getting paid for the Superfly. You're donating a day, and then you're getting paid for the second day. So you're really fishing for three days, only getting paid for two, but it's for charity. So there really wasn't anything. You were stressed because you this was your great opportunity to show all the work for the whole year. Like, did you do your homework? Are you gonna be one of those five guides that win everything? Because it's almost always the same five guides or three guides or two guides or whatever. Can you get into that group of people? And so once that started happening, that, you know, that felt really good to to do that, but you're compartmentalizing again. You're like, okay. Well, I'm a guide again, and I'm in the tournament. And, yes, I'm getting paid for two days instead of three, so that's a little bit of a risk. But then when we jumped to the professional tournaments, that's when it became a whole different deal like you're talking about. Like, now we're having it's a $5,000 entry fee to get into these tournaments. We had to drive to Texas. We're we're we're taking, you know, we're booked every single day of tarpon fishing. Rich was booked triple days. He would do three half days. I I never did that. I just did full days. So we're we're saying we're not going to do that, and we're gonna chase down this dream of being some sort of professional red fisherman, which the the winning team would win a boat that was worth about $50,000. Mostly, it would sit in your driveway for about eight months until you could sell it for 20, And then you split that between two people. And if I had just stayed home, I would have made more money than that. Right? Like and so would have he.

Ben Friedman: Right.

Tom Rowland: And so that's when it got different. That was a different deal. And setting the hook and everything, you're like, listen, man. This has taken food out of my family's mouth right here. If I do not, perform in this tournament, it's tough. And that's you know, I all I'm saying is what every bass fisherman in the world knows, and anybody that's listening that's done any kind of professional bass fisherman is like, yeah. Well, welcome to welcome to my world. You know? But then, you know, our next step was then now we're going to do a television show, and it's all of the things that you just talked about. And all the while, I still just like to go fishing. Like, I still just like to fish. So but I understand that there's a skill in guiding. There's a skill in being a tournament angler. There's a skill in being a a television personality. There's a skill in being a television producer. There's a skill in the sponsorship, relationships. There's a skill in public speaking. There's a skill in in doing your homework so that you can do a good job for your sponsors on the on the show. There's all of these different skills, and I have been able to just compartmentalize those into getting joy and excitement out of each one, not unlike what you're doing. Like, when you when you promote something on the Internet through Twitter or whatever and you get a big response from that, you're probably getting as good of a of a a feeling out of that as if you, you know, the fish that you caught to get that response. Like, it's a different skill set. And in order to be good at Twitter, you have to work at it. You have to you have to practice. You have to learn from other people. You have to apply it in your own certain way, and you kinda compartmentalize that, I'm sure Right. To where the Twitter thing the thing that you can't compartmentalize is, like, what we were talking about before when you get a whole bunch of bad comments. That's a tough one to compartmentalize. But I've been able to just take each one of these things and say, okay. Well, today, I like, when we're doing the end of the blue show, I'm the producer. Right? So I'm not I'm not feeling like, man, it should be me catching that sailfish right now. It's like, that is not even part of the the deal. And I know there's no chance I'm gonna touch the rod. I know there's no chance I'm even gonna get in the in the film boat. I'm gonna be on the camera boat. I'm gonna be driving the camera boat. I'm gonna be the best camera boat driver that anybody's ever seen. I'm not gonna run over the diver. I'm gonna be the safest camera boat driver ever, and I'm going to do my job as a producer. And, I'm gonna make sure that all the sponsors are represented. I'm gonna do all these things. And I'm just like, I'm gonna take great pride in that, and I'm gonna take great pride in the finished product being what it's out here for. And I'm not gonna feel like, well, I'd really like to catch that fish because that's how you drive yourself crazy, I think. You drive yourself completely crazy, and you see guides that do that, and, they're just unhappy all their life. Like, if if you're a guide because you want to fish, you're setting yourself up for great unhappiness throughout your life because you're never gonna get to fish. And you you you kind of look at your client with resentment of those people don't deserve to catch this fish as opposed to the guy that says, you know what? They don't deserve to catch this fish, but I'm gonna coach them into it. And I'm gonna take great pride, and I'm gonna be the best coach that this person's ever had. And he is gonna catch fish or she is gonna catch fish that they would have no chance of ever catching on their own, And I'm gonna take great pride in that. Like, I don't know. I don't know if that answers your question, but just that compartmentalizing all of that stuff and taking pride in each one of them rather than and trying to not think about the other way. Like like looking upon the other things as resentment. Like, I can't believe I've gotta be the one driving the camera boat when when I could be in front of the camera. It's like, okay. Well, that's the next level. The next level to me is being very content in being the best camera boat driver I can be that nobody will ever see that. Nobody will ever know that. It will never appear on TV. But I know. And I know that Right. Because the boat was in the right position, we got the shot that we needed.

Ben Friedman: And Yeah.

Tom Rowland: You know what I mean? Like

Ben Friedman: 100%. Yeah. It's so fascinating, like, how you learn that as it goes along. Like, you would never known that.

Tom Rowland: Mostly the hard way.

Racing the Pandemic to Finish Season Two

Ben Friedman: Right. It's just so crazy to me the whole experience of it. It's why it's it's fascinating talking to you as well because, like, you've done it 10,000,000,000,000 times as much as I have, but it's, like, just in my small experience, it's so, like, humbling the way that, like and the other thing too is the first season we did over, like I told you, on nights and weekends over a period of years. It was, like, I we get an episode, and then it would be, like, two months before I like, we'd film every weekend. But but the times that we got actual episodes, it'd be, like, you know, months in between. And that was kinda one of those things too now where it's, like, they were, like, so we finished up doing the sponsorship stuff. It's kinda, like, January when we were live. Right? And we were waiting on one thing, which I'll I don't even wanna say on here because it's still, like, supposed to happen and it didn't happen. But it's gonna be my grand trick for the next season that I can't wait. But it was a weather window thing that we would have to fly for, and this the guy is the only one able to do it. Whatever. I'll tell you later. But extremely rare fish to catch that I was waiting on. So we waited January. It didn't happen. February, it didn't happen. We started kinda getting antsy where, like, the people from Barstool, like, they're like, dude, what do you mean you're waiting on you know, like, you're dealing with a lot of times people that may not know fishing as much. So, like, just go do something. Like, we you can't just wait on this one fish. So then we started filming a ton in, like, the March. Right? So So hopefully put out in, like, April, May, whatever, which was ambitious to we kinda came out with a early June release date. We're like, okay. This was in the contract with the sponsors. We're gonna do it by this date. Then the pandemic happens, and you're sitting there being like, well, I can't fly to Texas now. We're not going to California. We're not going anywhere. I was in Florida. And and during those time, people love to forget now. March and April, you weren't even supposed to leave your house.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Ben Friedman: Like, I was filming stuff in Florida that my mom was, like, furious at me that I even went to Tampa during a certain time from we're in New Smyrna Beach. Like, she was furious at me. Like, what are you doing? You're gonna catch this thing. So and and you're sitting there and, like but there's also this kind of pressure. And and Laban and Dude Wipe, I love them dead. They they didn't do anything wrong. It was more internally. We're kinda sitting there, like, hey. We want these sponsors to be happy. You can't just tell them, sorry, guys. We got nothing. You know? So it's, like, there's this pressure where you're, like, hey. We gotta do this soon. And, like, as soon as things start opening up, we gotta get these episodes done and and edited. Like, it takes a long time to edit them. So once we started filming again, it was like, we had, like, three weeks to put out four episodes. We filmed some of them, like, you know, a couple weeks before where we're, like, hey. This is gonna be like, some of these days we filmed one day, and it's, like, this is gonna be whatever we get on this day. We don't have another chance for this. It's the hard drive is getting sent out tomorrow morning. You don't get another chance. So that was extremely stressful. And, like, I'm not gonna say frustrating, but, like, there's times where I do an episode where I'm, like, man, if if this was how I'd want it to be, we would have gotten one that was this big. Right? Like, even like I I don't wanna say it's almost like, you know, like episodes are almost like your kids. Like, you love them. You can't like you never wanna say something bad to diminish them. But there's ones where if I had more time, I would have loved to keep going until we got a fish of a certain size. Right? Like, you know, when you're selling an episode like you yourself, you're like, okay. We got a 150 pound tarpon. Let me I can hawk this. I know that I believe in this product. Like, you gotta see this. There's also times where you're like, I don't know. I don't know if you have to like, I know from my own ones. I'm like, I don't know if you have to see this one. Like, there's times, like, when I caught that sawfish, I'm like I'm like stopping random dudes on the street. Like, when the trash truck comes by, I'm like, hey. You gotta see the sawfish. Like, this is so cool. There's times where you're like, not that. Right? And that was kind of a new thing too is learning that you're like, this is the job where you have to create a product. It's not always a fairy tale, you know. And that was the huge stress when it comes to money and sponsors and everything. The budget gets bigger, but the expectations get way bigger. And also, if I just did season one over again, which was that was as best as I could do at the time. Like, that was everything I had. I'm like, here it is. I'm trying as hard as I can. Here's what it is. And it's not like your guys shows are way more beautiful and everything. Like, I'm not trying to say it was like a masterpiece. But for me, I was like, hey, we're trying super hard. This is me and my friends. This is as good as we got. If you do that over again and people are just like, oh, yeah. We've seen this. Like, even if you you kind of there's this weird feeling that you have to top it.

Tom Rowland: Mhmm.

Ben Friedman: And you're like, I don't know. That was as hard as I could go. And then you're trying to go harder, but then with a shorter time frame and more pressure. And that really was, like, a a very different stress. Right? Like, we caught the one Goliath grouper in the first episode that was, like, 500 pounds, and that was cool. And it ended up getting millions of views on Twitter. It got, like, 5,000,000 Instagram. It got, like, 6,000,000. Like, TikTok, it had 60,000,000. When I caught that fish on the boat, full full honesty, I was not excited. I didn't even like, I was excited on camera and we were I'm I was happy. But to me, I'm like in my head, I'm like, people have seen Goliath grouper a thousand times. I'm like, I don't think this is gonna do it. Like, there's this weird pressure of kind of in your head being like, this isn't good enough sometimes. And it ended up getting a lot of views, which, like you said, compartmental wise wise, I'm like, social media wise, that did its job. Good job. In my head on the boat that day, I was like, I just don't know if we did it. You know? I'm like, I I people might see this and be like, we've seen Goliath Grouper. Who cares? And I was kind of, like, stressed when I I it was not like we caught that fish, and I was like, oh, thank god we did it. I'm like, man, I just don't know if this is gonna do it.

It's Not About the Fish: Lessons from Bill Dance

Tom Rowland: I think one of the big things is that you're you're talking to a completely different audience. Like yeah. You know?

Ben Friedman: 100%.

Tom Rowland: BlacktipH catches Goliath groupers every week, pretty much. And everybody that watches his thing, they've seen a million of them. Right? So but but not necessarily the barstool. A lot of the people have never seen that before ever, and you're introducing them to something that's completely new. And, I mean, some have, of course, but I don't know. I mean, it's it's about, you know, it's about more than the fish you catch, and it's about more than the even in the story you tell. It's like the way you tell it and the way that that you catch it and the way I don't know. I mean, Bill Dance has been has been on TV, longer, certainly way longer than you've been alive. And, he catches the same fish every time. Right? Largemouth bass pretty much in the same pond. And, you know, he keeps doing it a little bit differently. And that's something that we had to come to terms with is, like, well, we've caught baby tarpon a whole bunch of times, but how are we going to do it today? That's going to be a little bit different. How are we going to how are we going to do it? Can we do it on on the surface? Can we do it on fly? Could we do it? Is is there some bait that we've never used? Is there an opportunity to teach people something? And so, therefore, it turns out to be an entirely different show even though the quarry is the same. And, you know, you can you can try to, you know I don't know. Maybe you got a new boat. Maybe you got a new fishing rod. Maybe you got something new that you can kinda craft into that story that makes this a different show than you did last year. And, you

Ben Friedman: know And two things that two things you just said that I think are super interesting and, like, this it's, like, such a crazy resource to be able to talk to you about all this because it's, like, I have so many questions that it's, like, it's amazing to be able to get your opinions, by the way. But, anyways, I think, like, two things you said. Number one, the different audience is huge as well because, like, I I never wanna use that as a crutch because I think, like, that's it's kind of like a cop out because it's like I could show them, like, you know, a garter snake in the backyard. Some people haven't seen that. So you always wanna be, like, up to par with people who are doing it for that audience because that's you know what I mean? Like, I I I never wanna be, like, just the mainstream lame stuff because that's because people like you or whoever, like, I wanna make something that, like, you guys have never seen or think is cool. Like, that's the goal at least. But it is interesting where it's, like, I all I do all day is look at fishing stuff, see, watch YouTube, watch Instagram of, like, crazy fishing stuff to make me be, like, woah, that's crazy. I'm so numb to most of the other stuff. So I think sometimes the I'm I'm a little bit conditioned to be, like, a little bit tougher on myself where I'm like, I caught that Goliath. I'm like, dude, everyone's seen 10,000,000,000,000 Goliaths, but they might not all follow BlacktipH or you guys or whoever. It's like so that's something that I had to kind of remember that it's like, don't be it it's pointless to just be negative all the time because in this day and age, there's a lot of good fishermen out there capturing a lot of crazy stuff. So, like, just because it's been done before, it doesn't mean that it's worthless. You know what I mean? It's like that's kind of a, not very fulfilling way to think about it. Right. And number two that you said that I thought was interesting is, like, the build dance thing and everything you're saying. It's like, sometimes I get so strung up on the fish and, like, if we don't have this product as far as, like, if we don't catch this bull redfish in Haulover Canal, this episode's a failure. No one that's watching my show. I'd say not no one. 95% care more about me slipping and falling on the deck or, like, you know, puking or, like, saying something funny. Like, sometimes when you talked about compartmentalizing different elements of it. Right? Whereas, you know, talking to the sponsors is just as important as catching the tarpon. To me, that's something I've had to learn too where it's, like, being funny on the boat or, like, capturing little, you know, anecdotes at, like, in the bass episode, the thing that got the most traction was the guy talking about the guys flipping and falling in fire ants while he was going to the bathroom on the bank, like, more than the bass. And it's like, I sometimes get so caught up in the pressure of being like, you gotta show that you're good at fishing this fish when that's pretty much like like you said, the build dancing, like, it doesn't even I wouldn't say it doesn't really matter, but it's like the essence of the show is so much else other than the fishing. Isn't that interesting? Like, it's something that I've just come to kind of learn that you're like and something that that I think is really cool that I thought of while you're talking about that. When I watch your guys show. Right? When you're making it, there's probably such a pressure in your head being like, we gotta catch this or do this or get this, you know, footage. But when I'm when I was like a kid in Missouri watching your show, it's an escape, and it was something that I didn't care if you guys caught barracuda or like, you know, a needle fish or like a snapper at the dock. In my mind, I wanted to just, like, vicariously watch you guys be in Islamorada or be at Hawks Cay and be in, you know, this kind of mind frame and a fun thing. I wasn't there was no pressure from me watching you. Like, I wasn't like Tom Rowan better catch this tarpon on fly. I was like, this is so fun to just be able to, like, be in this mind frame. And sometimes I think I gotta capture that way better than it's about just the fish, you know?

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, if it's about just the fish, it becomes old pretty quickly. I mean, there's gotta be something more to it. And, you you know, each of us are creating our own thing, and it's gonna appeal to some people, and it's not gonna appeal to others. And and, then you kinda collect your your people, that that like what you're doing, and then you continue to produce that for them. And, hopefully, you continue to grow the audience, and and, I don't know. You gotta take pride in what you do and feel good about it in order to keep it going. But, you know, one thing that keeps coming to my mind is, like, you're you're realizing that it's you know, as much as we've talked about the difficulty in in how many you know, it took you twenty one years to get a show. Right? As much as as difficult as that may seem that it took twenty one years, what you're gonna find and what you're finding right now, we've already kinda touched on, is that it's actually easy to get it started. It's hard to keep it going. It's harder to keep it going. And even though it took you twenty one years to get the show, it's been harder to get season two launched, and it will be still continue to be harder. I mean, some things will get easier. Like, you know, we've been on the show on the air for seventeen years, and some things are easier, but some things are not. Like, you know, some things, it becomes harder and harder every year to sometimes maintain the sponsor relationships or to deal with declining television views and figure out, like, how are we gonna get those views back? Like, you know, so, you know, you go to different things, you know, the Internet or waypoint or whatever. And it's just kinda interesting, but, that's that seems to be where you are. But, man, we could we we obviously barely scratched the surface, and we've been gone for an hour and a half. And, so I would love really love to have you on again because, I very much enjoyed this this conversation. I really do feel like we barely barely scratched the surface. We haven't we didn't really get to any of your your episodes or or, like, what you're doing. But, really, to me, the most interesting thing about you and what you're doing is not the fish that you're catching. To me, the most interesting thing is the journey of how you got to where you are. And it would be very easy, I think, for many people to look at someone, you, anyone, on a platform like Barstool and think, man, they just put this guy in there and and off he off he goes. Right? Like, it's but it's it's an overnight success. Twenty one years in the making is what you told us pretty much. And and, I think it it for me, it gives me much greater respect for your journey and what you've been able to accomplish and how you did it and the determination and the work ethic and everything that you had. I mean, you're alright, dude, man. And and it's it's really cool to see you having having success. It's something that you worked so hard at, and, I'm a fan.

Twenty-One Years in the Making

Ben Friedman: Man, that means a lot coming from you. It's it's like, it's crazy too because, you know, as you do stuff more to, like, I make this show or that, or you kind of learn who you who you think is cool even more refined. Right? Like, I've seen people that make other shows that I'm like, oh, this is, like, kinda cheap or other people on YouTube or Instagram where you're like, this is not what I thought it was. And as I've made it more, like, when you said seventeen years too, it's like, oh, I'm almost, like, passed out. It's like, that is the amount of, you know, skill and longevity that that takes. It's like, that is so impressive, man. And, like, yeah. I mean, obviously, I'll come on anytime. I'll come on every day if you want me to. But it's like, I just think you're the way that you guys do the website, the way that you guys do everything, it's just I really think that it's amazing kind of show of, like, what the pinnacle as far as, like, people doing outdoor shows and, like or just, like, anything outdoors content. I I think the way you guys do it and have done it for a long time is just first class, and it's, like, I'm just learning. I I I shouldn't have been talking so much. I gotta listen to you more. It's just fascinating. This is

Tom Rowland: all about we we'll have another one where we can where where we can bounce around some ideas, but, you know, you have you're bringing a a real, interesting set of skills into this. And, you know, like, when I when I had an opportunity to have Bill Dance on the show, I felt, very much the same that that you're saying. I'm like, dude, you've been on the air for forty five years. He has produced thousands and thousands of episodes and and just done, you know, not only his freshwater show, but then he's got a saltwater show. And and I'm just in awe, really, like, of what he's been able to accomplish and how he's been able to do it and and just the amount of respect that that he has throughout the industry. And it's really cool. But then he there are things that he doesn't have. Like, he doesn't have the, the savvy on the on the Internet. He doesn't have the social media experience or knowledge that I have or you have, and I don't have what you have. Like, everybody you know, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants like Bill Dance, Roland Martin, Jimmy Houston, those kind of people that, Jerry McKinnis that that carved out a path for making a wet making your living in the outdoors. But then Mhmm.

Ben Friedman: You know,

Tom Rowland: I'm bringing my unique little secret sauce to it, and then you're you're doing the same thing. It's really cool. And, I don't know if the bar is getting higher. It's getting it it almost it's like a different bar. Like, it's just a diff like, it's almost a different animal. Like, everything is a is is different, but it's really cool. And I I wanna give you a great congratulations because your story is super cool, man. It's it's really, really cool. So many people that listen to this podcast want to do something like what you've done. Maybe it might not look like a TV show or an Internet show or a YouTube channel. It might look more like being a fishing guide, or it might look more like, you know, starting a a nonprofit and doing something that they really want. But, I mean, the the it always goes back to the same thing, and it's all of the recipe that made you, get to where you are today. And that is man, it it you can't there's no substitute for hard work, determination, and and just doing it despite the odds. Like

Ben Friedman: Right. And the other thing too, what you're saying, a lot of because fishing is such a, recreational and being outdoors, there's so many millions of people that do it. Like, there's sometimes a misconception when people watch stuff or see stuff online. Because it's almost like when someone's watching a a basketball game, they're like, I could've made that shot, whatever, because everyone's played basketball. A lot of times people will sit there and be like, dude, my boy caught a, you know, catfish twice as big as that. You guys suck all stuff. It's like, to actually be a professional and do something on camera, it's like, oh, well, I took my buddy fishing and put him on a 10 pound bass. It's like, okay. Well, when you're a guide, you have to do that every day for years. And even when you don't feel the when it's raining, yes. It's like, I think there is a respect too for when you actually start doing stuff. Like you said, it it's very humbling because it's like like you said, there's a lot of people that see stuff online. Like, that would be my only word of advice to people that listen to your podcast or anything. It's like, it's very easy to and I used to do it when I'd watch people on TV. Like, not you guys, because you guys would catch fish a lot of, like, all the time. But it's like, you'd watch something and you're like, man, I fish all the time. I could do this. It is a whole different game to be commenting or saying you could do something versus, like, build and soon some. That's why longevity, I respect. It's like seventeen years. I can't even fathom it. It's like, if I'm if I'm here fifteen years from now saying that, oh my god. I can't even tell you how happy I'd be. It's, like, that is I think you gain a respect as you start to, like, try to do something. It's, like, forty five years build dance. It's, like, I mean, it's it's uncomprehendable as far as, like, your brain to be able to process the amount of work and things that went into that. So I think that's the biggest thing I would say is, like, whether you're a hunting guide, a fishing guide, making videos, the respect that I have for people that have been doing it for a long time and stuff, it is more than I've ever knew was possible beforehand. You know what I mean? You're like, oh my god. I I have a new recognition of these people's lives, you know?

Tom Rowland: Right on, man. Well, it's nice of you say that. And, and, I feel the same way. Like, I mean, it's hard to even imagine the amount of work and and and and risk and other things that went into the careers of the people that we're talking about. But, they've managed to do it, and they're still doing it. Like, they're still doing it. Yeah. It's crazy. But listen, man. Tell everybody how, how they can follow you, how they can see your show. We should have done this right at the beginning. But, how does everybody follow you and watch your show?

Where to Follow Barstool Outdoors

Ben Friedman: Yeah. Just, on barstoolsports.com, it's Barstool Outdoors, which is you know, if you just Google that, it should come up because there's a lot of different things on Barstool. But Barstool Outdoors is basically the hub of everything. Right? So we got the Instagram. It's just at Barstool outdoors. Twitter, you can search Barstool outdoors. And then my personal stuff is actually from this might not make sense to anyone in outdoors, but it's at young page views because that was the music video I made when I Dave is known as Davey Pageviews, the founder of Barstool. So when I went to make to get his attention, I made a music video called, I'm Young Pageviews. It's, like, supposed to be funny, like, to try to make him, like, I don't know, get his attention. So I was like, hey, I'm Young You. Like, I was trying to, like, say that. Never in a million years thought that I would be called that or anything. But that is my social media is just at young pages. It's such a weird name to say, but that's where you're gonna find all of my other stuff on Instagram, Twitter, on TikTok, which who knows how long that I don't know. I just started posting shark videos and it got people watching. So anywhere you can find it, that's where it is. And, basically, if you just message me or something, I I love to talk fishing with people all the time. So that's the other thing too that's cool about social media. It's not even just following. It's like if you wanna talk I love to talk about sharks, about Florida Keys, anything. So hit me up, and I'd love to meet people. You know? That's all.

Tom Rowland: Right on. Well, that's awesome, man. Well, thanks for coming on the show. I look forward to doing it again. And, you know, we'll stay in touch. And, good luck with the rest of the season.

Ben Friedman: Yes, sir. Thank you.

Tom Rowland: Alright. That's it. We'll be back with another awesome guest next week, and wanna thank Ben Friedman for being our guest this week. Go check out his show on Barstool Outdoors. That's what it's called. He gave you all the social media handles. And, until next week. We'll see you.