Miles Burghoff Co-Host Of Sweetwater TV Show - Tom Rowland Podcast | Tom Rowland Podcast Ep. 6

Episode Introduction

Tom Rowland: I'm Tom Rowland, and this is the Tom Rowland podcast. Hey, everybody. This is Tom Rowland, and today's show features a good friend of mine, Miles Burghoff. Miles Burghoff is the cohost of Sweetwater Television with Joey Nenea, and these guys travel all over the place and fish for, mostly freshwater fish, but some saltwater. Miles and I have a good conversation about how he got started, what the world of sponsorship looks like. How does somebody get into this world? What are the most common questions that people are asking both of us? And a little bit of advice, both given to us by mentors that have really played a big part in the success that we've both had in the in the fishing world and and in the sponsorship world and just understanding that world and seeing what it is that, as an angler, we're trying to accomplish to best serve the sponsor. A lot of people don't quite understand that. And, luckily, we both had some good mentors that that helped us out along the way. So that knowledge is shared as well as, what Miles does on the road, what he listens to, how a bass fisherman travels around the country. Is it lonely? You bet. Is it, sometimes boring? Probably. Very often. But this conversation is not boring. Miles is a good conversationalist that likes to laugh and have a good time. I learned a few things from this. So we will get to that right after this. This episode is brought to you by Waypoint TV. Waypoint TV is an online platform where you can get your favorite hunting and fishing shows for free on any device at any time. You can literally go there and find the device that you want, and there's either an app or you can download the app onto your smart TV or to your Apple TV. You can get it on your phone, your tablet, Android, Apple, doesn't matter. This is available all over the place, and the inventory of shows that they have is really getting to be impressive. Short films and some of the best saltwater, freshwater, fly fishing, you name it, it's on there, plus hunting, and it's free. So go to waypointtv.com. Check it out. Download the app. Do whatever you need to to get it on your favorite device, and start watching your shows, quit DVRing them, quit staying home on Saturday morning, actually go fishing on Saturday morning. That's a novel idea. You could actually go fishing instead of sitting at home watching your fishing shows. Then you can watch your fishing shows when you're going, you know, to work in the Uber, on the subway, wherever you're going. These things are available to you. So check out waypointtv.com and find out how you wanna watch your favorite outdoor shows, and then start binging. Bend your way. So today's episode with Miles Burghoff starts now. Everybody, meet Miles Burghoff.

How Sweetwater TV Came Together

Tom Rowland: So tonight, I'm sitting here at my house with one of my friends, and this guy and I have been working together for a few years. He is a tournament bass fisherman and an all around good guy that came into my life because we started a new project. So a lot of people know that we do Saltwater Experience. Some people know that we also produce a show called Into the Blue, and even a smaller group of people might know that we also my company also does a show called Sweetwater. And Sweetwater is a bass fishing show primarily, but a freshwater show that, tackles all different kinds of fish. Last year, I think they fished for pike and musky and smallmouth bass, largemouth bass, crappie, anything, trout. It's a freshwater show. So Saltwater Experience is the show that I'm on with Rich. We fish in, in Florida primarily in shallow flats for redfish permit, tarpon, bonefish, sharks, those kind of fish. There's an offshore kind of offshoot of that show called end of the blue with Steve Roger and Scott Walker, and they fish offshore for, you know, the fish that they like to catch, sailfish, tuna, dolphin, all kinds of stuff offshore. And then we also serve another part of the market with the, with the Freshwater Show. So I was tasked, a few years ago, I guess it's four years ago now, that this is a this is a project that we wanted to tackle. Rich and I talked about it. We thought about, okay. What is a a show that we should do? And we thought Freshwater Show would be excellent. So I was tasked with finding with creating a list, coming up with a list of people that might be good hosts for this show. I thought about one guy immediately that I had spent a weekend with traveling. Young guy, full of excitement and energy, just on fire for the sport, on fire for for fishing. And, his name was Joey Nunez. And Joey and I had traveled all around, Mobile, Alabama over to Louisiana to to, do these Bass Pro Shop seminars, and I got spent a lot of time in the car with him. I was very impressed with Joey. So Joey was on on the list. And I I looked around, met with quite a few other bass fishermen, talked to one of my friends, Louis Wellen, who is a a mentor of mine from Oakley. Louis was my first, first sponsor that really, took an interest in in me and developing me as a, as someone who could know anything about sponsorship. Lewis was very, very patient with me, and, really, I learned a a ton about sponsorship, what companies are looking for, what, how how I can be of a good servant and do a good job for a sponsor. So when Lewis tells me that he knows somebody that I might wanna talk to, I'm listening. And, Lewis tells me he gives me one name. He says Miles Burghoff. He says Miles is your guy. That's that's it. That's your guy. So when I heard that, I was like, okay. Well, if you're telling me that that this guy is my guy, then I'm gonna check it out. So I went and, made a phone call to Miles. Miles was, excited about the opportunity. I went to fish with him, and I was equally as impressed with Miles. So it's fun to have Miles here. He drove the big hook wrapped truck right up into my driveway. We went out to dinner tonight, and Miles is in the house tonight. Miles Burghoff.

Miles Burghoff: It's good to be here.

Tom Rowland: Alright. Alright. Long long introduction to, to how we got started working together, but, but that's really that's really how it went down.

Lewis From Oakley: A Mentor's Influence

Miles Burghoff: You're making me blush, man, because that's actually hearing it from you, the story about Lewis. Yeah. I mean, I have the utmost respect for Lewis, and I was working with the Oakley Big Bass tour, and that's how I got to know Lewis. And I got to know some of the guys at, like, Quantum, and and I guess there there were another company that you talked to. Yep. Lewis

Tom Rowland: Bob Bagby and and John Kuchneric both.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. Lewis, to have his seal of approval, that's that's a big deal.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, you know, Lewis, to me, you you have few people in your life that that come into your life at a certain time and really teach you something. Yeah. So during the great outdoor games, I went fishing in in New York of all places. I'm trout fishing in New York. And and I look over at this guy that I'm fishing with, and he's got these glasses on. And I said, what kind of glasses are those? He said, the these are Oakleys. They're the frog skin.

Miles Burghoff: I don't

Tom Rowland: know if you remember the frog skin.

Miles Burghoff: I know.

Tom Rowland: It was their first pair of polarized glasses, and they kinda looked like Varnays. They were like, you know, different different style, kind of not really a fishing style.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And, I was like, really? Let me see those. So I put them on, and I was like, man, I'm calling when I get back. So I didn't have any sort of sunglass sponsor, and I really liked the Oakley glasses. So I I called him, and and Lewis, was was my guy. That's who I got in touch with. And and the first thing he said to me, he said, well, I'll be happy to talk to you, but fishing really isn't on TV too much, is it? And I said, well, actually actually, it is. And, actually, I just was in this this thing called the ESPN great outdoor games. It was on ABC, and it was on ESPN, and it was in front of 17,000,000 people. And I happened to win. And he was like, really? I didn't know that that it was on TV that much. And he goes, well, here's what you need to do. You need to just send me an email on everything that you're doing. And I said, you just want me to send an email on everything I'm doing? And he said, yeah. You just you just go ahead and just write down whatever you're doing. Send me an email. And so Lewis became my journal. Yeah. I mean, these emails to Lewis became became, I don't know why I felt so open about doing this with him, but I he he he assured me. He's like, look, man. I wanna know everything you're doing. And if we have any future together, you need to tell me everything that you're doing. And I was like, okay. So I'd do a radio interview. I'd come home, and I'm like, Louis did a radio interview today, talked about, you know, this and this and this, and and it was on this this, you know, radio station in the Florida Keys. And then this one, I did one with ESPN, and then this and this. And so I'm writing down all this stuff. And over the over the years, I look back on those days and him telling me, you know, well, that's great that you did that, but it really doesn't help me at all.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: This over here that you did and you didn't think was helping anything, this free seminar that you did, now that is really good. You need to keep doing more things like that. But what what happened with my time with Lewis is that he he really taught me that you can go and do anything that you want to, But if you don't tell your sponsors about it, it really has no no benefit to them. You know, that's something that Lewis taught me

Miles Burghoff: a lot too and but at the time, when I when I first met him, I was real green.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: And I still am. I mean, we I guess we all are really you know, we're we're all learning. But Lewis automatically just struck me as somebody, like, I need to listen to this guy, like and he's he's actually listening to me. And he's he's higher up on, the Oakley, you know, staff. And so he started telling me the about the same things that you that you're talking about. And, you know, I wish I utilized that communication more. I see that that was a mistake. I'm kind of a perfectionist, you know, and that can that can be one of the your biggest struggles with a lot of different things that you do, whether it's social media content or or, just anything you do for for sponsors because I would be like, oh, you know, I did this little seminar. There was only, like, 20 people there. Yeah. I don't think Louis wants to know about that. Over the time, I kinda regret not communicating more with him about the the little things because he he's willing he was willing to to listen, and he was willing to give me advice based on, you know, my progress.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, I think in sponsorship, it's important to let everyone know what you're doing. And Mhmm. Today, it's easier than ever with social media. But if you're doing a seminar with 20 people, there's nothing to be ashamed of.

Miles Burghoff: No. There's not.

Tom Rowland: Doing a seminar with 20 people. There are a lot of guys that don't do a seminar with 20 people in their entire career.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Like, there's certainly nothing to be ashamed of. In some seminars, you're gonna have 20 people. In some seminars, you're gonna have 200 people. And some of the ones that you're gonna have two or three people show up, those are actually the most important because those guys are gonna go on and say, hey. You know, I was at this this random sports show, and you see that guy on TV right there? I saw I I was at a sports show, and I sat there and talked to him for forty five minutes about knots. And he just sat there and talked to me. Right? Like, that's what a lot of people will remember, and you can actually turn somebody's fishing career around. You can turn whatever around, or you can just be a decent guy and spend a little time with somebody, answer a few questions. But, you know, those are the things that that sponsors often are very, very interested in. And and Lewis also gave me a piece of advice. I think it was Lewis. Maybe it was Shaw Grigsby. I don't know. Both of those guys at the same time. It's hard to get Lewis and Shaw Grigsby

Miles Burghoff: mixed up.

Tom Rowland: But but at the time, both of them were equally as as, influential on my on my fishing career. That you are worth your audience. You are Yeah. You are worth the size of your audience, and, that's something that always stuck with me. And so back then, it was before the Internet. It was before social media or anything like that, certainly before websites even, that so I just said, okay. Well, if I need to increase my audience, I need more customers on the boat. I need to write articles. I need to take photographs. I need to do free seminars. I need to do paid seminars. I need to do tournaments. I need to do all of these things. Yep. Every one of those things was a way of of creating a larger audience.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Today, there's even more ways to create a larger audience, and some people are really super good at it. Some people are, are not as good at it. But but today, there's more and more ways. Each of them is is important and influential to the sponsorship. But, yeah, I learned a lot about Lewis, or I learned a lot from Lewis. Even another thing that we may get into it later. But, fishing with Lewis, I learned a lesson about myself fifteen years after it had after this event had happened. I learned a lesson about myself that that brought a lot of things very clear. I'll tell you about it another time, but very interesting. Good times back then.

From the Florida Keys to Tournament Bass Fishing

Tom Rowland: So, Miles, tell us about where do you come from? How do you end up sitting on this couch right here talking to us? Man, what a story.

Miles Burghoff: Talking to me. You know, it's it's amazing how, you know, life works. And if you really want something, how it happens as long as you just keep yourself in it. Right. Keep the pressure on, and it just kinda develops. It's not exactly the plan that you want it to be because, you know, it it's it's unpredictable. But in the end, it's it it kinda is exactly where you wanna be. But, essentially, you know, when I was to start at the very beginning, grew up down in the the Florida Keys, that's where I love to learn how to

Tom Rowland: to Florida Keys.

Miles Burghoff: Love to fish. Yeah. Marathon. And so I did some saltwater fishing down there. Yeah. I loved it down there.

Tom Rowland: No. Wait. Why why were you in the Florida Keys? What what brought your family to

Miles Burghoff: the Florida Keys? My dad bought a house down there. He just liked to to live in Florida, and and so we moved down there.

Tom Rowland: And This is this is your dad's retired at

Miles Burghoff: this point? He is he is retired. That was way after the show. So for the listeners that don't know, my dad my dad played a radar on MASH. Yeah. My nickname's sonar.

Tom Rowland: That's a radar one. Sonar. Love it.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. Son of radar. And so after MASH, you know, he he wanted to retire down there, and so we we moved down there. It didn't end up being his his end location, but, it it sure did give me a start in in, fishing, and I absolutely just I was ate up with it, man. And then after that, we actually have a house in Connecticut, so we'd go up there and and that was on a freshwater lake. And I remember catching my very first bass. It was a beautiful thing, man. At least, I think it was my first bass. You know, when you're little, you may have caught some more, but there was one that really just stuck with me. It was a smallmouth bass, and I had this little lure that they used to sell at this this tackle shop called Nichols Sporting Goods. It was essentially this plastic allure that had a little pull string. So when you cast it out, these little legs would clap together on the surface. Yeah. I know. Really? And it was it was awesome. And it I mean, I got a kick out of that. But I remember casting that thing out there, and the thing went to work, you know, and it was shaking its legs. And then, all of a sudden, this just giant explosion. And when you're a kid, it's just anything's big.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: And, it ended up being like a a three pound smallmouth bass, and it was, like, the coolest thing. And ever since then, I mean, I threw all the Dorado, all the wahoo and stuff that I was catching with my dad offshore and the keys, and I was like, I wanna go tournament bass or, you know, at that time, it was just bass fishing. Right. And then I learned of tournaments. And so I've been tournament fishing, you know, since high school and decided to move back to Florida, go to school in Florida. I picked a school based on the its proximity to lakes that I wanna fish. And then, and then just, you know, I just I had in my mind that I was going to achieve my dream of becoming a professional fisherman, and I moved into a trailer during that whole college year, you know, eight year period so I could stay close to, I could keep my overhead low, stay close to the lakes that I wanted to fish, and, and kind of have focus. You know? I didn't wanna be out partying all the time, which would have been nice. It it was it was actually a a kind of I had some lonely periods, but it was Yeah. But it worked out in the long run. That was, like, the the best experience. And and just the simple act of of continuing to put that pressure on and stay out there and and continue to to network with people. You know, I'd go to the Bassmaster Classic. I'd wear the best clothes that I could possibly afford because I knew that I'd stand out against all these other guys that are that are going to these these trade shows, and they're just wearing sneakers and stuff. I knew that I'd look at I'll just different than the the other guys that were approaching them, young young guys. And so I just kept on going to these shows. I'd get to meet people. And then, that just, you know, started I started building relationships, and it it wasn't like I was sending these applications off for sponsorships. It just it just kind of organically happened because they saw that I was there. I was willing to work. I knew the hustle. I was trying hard. And so, and then sooner or later, I got a call from a guy named Mark Jones. He's he, him and and a a a guy named, Keith Odom, they run the Oakley Big Bass tour, which is now the the the the, Bass Pro Shops Big Bass tour. They had got my name from somebody else. They wanted me to to host their show for and they I did it for two years, and that's where I met that's where I met Lewis. And then Lewis, you know, got me in touch with you. Right. And so it just comes full circle. And it's a beautiful thing because it's like, you know, you work so hard all these years to to, you know, get some place, and it's and it's not exactly where you think you're gonna be. I actually thought that I didn't wanna have my own fishing show. Like, I was just like, I just wanna focus on tournaments. I don't wanna be to have my focus, you know, split up between several different things. I wanna, you know, go tournament fishing. Right. That's it. And then all of a sudden, I get these opportunities, and I find out something in myself that I'm just like, I really enjoy this. Yeah. You know? And so it's it's really cool how it works.

Sponsorship: The Questions Everyone Asks

Tom Rowland: Yeah. That's, that's funny. I wanna talk about the sponsorship thing. Mhmm. Because one thing that I run into all the time and probably, I I would say, of the top three subjects that I I receive messages on, emails or questions when we're at a sports show or whatever, revolve around sponsorship.

Miles Burghoff: Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: Revolve around someone who wants to get to a certain place, feels like sponsorship is necessary, has no idea how to get there. And, you know, sometimes there's just not enough time to really to really put towards giving someone the information that they really need. Right? I want to because it's good for that person, usually a kid. I want to because it's good for the industry. Mhmm. It's good for the sponsors that I work with. One thing that I run into a lot of times are individuals who feel as though they've caught some fish. They're pretty good. They maybe won a tournament or two, and they deserve sponsorship. Wrong. Right. That's what I think. It's wrong. Yeah. Dead dead wrong. No. Absolutely. And then it was a hard lesson for me to learn, and it happened during the time that we were fishing in the Redfish Tournament. So our tournament experience starts in the Florida Keys where it's a different type of tournament. It's it's a guide who gets booked by a tournament. Yeah. These tournaments started as a way to fill in some slow time for the guides. Right? So a September tournament is generally a very, very slow time. So they they started doing these tournaments that would bring anglers to The Keys to to have some fun, to fish in a tournament, and then the guide gets a little work. It also happens to be a charity event, which was a beautiful thing. Cystic fibrosis, the red bone tournaments

Miles Burghoff: Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: Raised huge amounts of money for for cystic fibrosis. It was a wonderful thing. And it also happens at a time where that's that's your sonar going off.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. No kidding. Thought I'd turn that off.

Tom Rowland: It actually sounds like sonar. I

Miles Burghoff: like that.

Tom Rowland: Well, that it's, by design. Anyway, these these tournaments would happen at a time where it was really good for the guides. It it it it it injects money into the local economy. But, basically, it is two guys fishing on the front of a boat, a guide on the back of the boat, skiff tournaments mostly. And it's really designed to raise money for charity and and give these guys an opportunity to fish. Yeah. Give the guide an opportunity to work well just like any other type of a a thing that starts that way. Yeah. It becomes competitive very, very quickly. Right? Like, you you know, it's a reputation thing. You don't win money, but you win you win a reputation. So if you are constantly the guy that is winning those things, you are going to end up getting a little bit more of an audience. This is before the Internet, you know, when this is all happening, like I was saying. So it was an excellent way for your name to be at the top of that scoreboard if you had anglers that could fish. Mhmm. So that's one type of tournament. Then that then we graduate to another type of tournament, which is a professional caliber tournament more like what you're used to fishing in, where you're fishing for money and you're moving around, and that was in the redfish tournament. So in these redfish tournaments, I learned my lesson about sponsorship in that it was definitely not about how many tournaments you win. If you win tournaments, that is excellent. But what is the most important is putting on an absolute positive impression for whoever it is that you represent. Absolutely. And that positive impression comes in a lot of different ways. The the condition of your gear, you know, how clean is your truck, you know, are you driving like a madman down the road with all these sponsor people all over your car, or are you being a 100% professional? Are you saying hello to every little kid that you see? Are you waiting in line patiently at the boat ramp? Mhmm. Are you doing free seminars during the tournament? Are you doing them before the tournament? Are you doing them after the tournament? And it became really, really obvious to me that an angler who never wins a tournament but does a lot of free seminars or paid seminars or writes articles is way more valuable than a guy that wins a few tournaments here and there. And I think that's a very tough thing to get across to someone who feels like, man, will Kevin Van Damme get sponsored because he wins all these tournaments?

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. True. But he's he's one of the hardest working guys, if not the hardest working guy in the bass Yeah. Bass industry. Maybe even just fishing in general.

Tom Rowland: I believe it. I I know Kevin, and he's a he's I don't know him very well, but I know him by reputation. And I've run into him at many quantum events where where, you know, we're sponsored by a number of the same sponsors, and we have run into one another. And I'm always very impressed with his work ethic. That's what everyone always says about Kevin. And what Kevin also will impress you with right away, he's a humble guy. He is never gonna walk past someone with his head held high and doesn't have time for this guy. That which the he's the most sponsored fisherman because he always has time for someone.

Being an Ambassador for the Sport

Miles Burghoff: Here's here's my perspective on the whole sponsor thing, and I've learned the hard way like everybody else has. My perspective is that as anglers, if you wanna make a living as a professional angler, quote, unquote, you have to be, in the mindset that you're an ambassador, period. You're not a tournament angler because nobody wants to pay you just to to go fish tournaments. They're paying you to be an ambassador for the sport. Get people excited about fishing, teach them how to fish, and in turn, that's gonna help the industry. It's their people are gonna buy product and go fishing. And that's exactly what you you need to do, and you do that through seminars. You do it through writing. It's just whatever it is nowadays. It's social media. Social media is a big thing. Getting people excited. You you always wanna have a positive attitude about everything that you do. Spin everything in a positive. I mean, because you don't wanna turn anybody off. You don't wanna be negative about it. Sponsors don't like that. No. Nobody likes that. They're in this business to to to make money. It's business. And there's nothing that in the in the the company handbook that says that they have to sponsor somebody. No. They could put their money somewhere else. And the reason that that they the sponsorship is, something that the companies do, and they do put a substantial amount of budget towards is because anglers are the only real platform to get other anglers excited about fishing and bring more people into the sport and and buy more product. And so that's that's one thing one thing I always because I get the same question. You know? I with the limited success that I've had and it keeps on growing and I'm real humbled by it, I get a lot of questions about sponsorship. And first thing I tell somebody is, don't worry about it. Don't worry about sponsorship right now. Focus on fishing because when you're when you enjoy what you do, people are gonna notice. Right. Focus on fishing first, networking second. Networking is huge. Staying professional and just meeting people. Don't don't be soliciting for sponsorships all over the place because the most meaningful sponsorships and the most meaningful partnerships, getting your own show, you know, with with Joey, of course, you know Right. You guys approaching me, that all happened organically. I didn't send you guys a application for, you know, for Sweetwater. It it just happened because I I I realized that I just need to focus on my fishing and enjoying, what I'm doing and and providing a very positive atmosphere for the people around me. Right. And and, you know,

Tom Rowland: well well, the reason that that something like that happens, in my opinion, is because you paid your dues. You had been paying your dues for many, many years so that when that opportunity does happen, like flipping cards on a deck, when that card comes up, you're the first person that anybody thinks about.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Right? And so you know, and and and, obviously, there's some serendipity or some some, you know, networking is excellent. You know Louis. I know Louis. Louis I asked Louis. I I'm thinking enough about about this project that I start asking everybody I know. Who do you recommend? Well, I got your name from two different people. So, obviously, you've been putting your work in. And, you know, you weren't expecting anything, but that's what happens is because you were just doing it out of love for the sport. You were doing it because you're you're trying to be a professional at this, and your name comes up twice. And, certainly, then there's one more step, right, that that you actually have to we have to get together. And then all of the things that I hear have to be consistent with what I see. Mhmm. Right? Yep. And and that's exactly what happened. So I I'm really glad it did because I've really enjoyed Me too. Really, enjoyed working, with both you and and Joey. And we've created something pretty cool, I think I think,

Miles Burghoff: with Sweetwater. Sweetwater is yeah. It's it's def I'm so happy that you gave me that sent me that email. I was I remember when I was I was driving to the bank driving my wife to the bank, we're dropping off the rent, and they saw your your your email. I'm like, Tom Rowland. Who's Tom Rowland? And I looked you up on on, on the Internet because I'm not a saltwater guy, so I didn't I didn't know the great Tom Rowland. And then, and then I flew back to Alabama, and we met for the first time. And I was pretty nervous taking you out fishing, and we really sucked. We didn't catch much of anything. No. But, you know, I'm glad that I made a good first impression. No.

Filming a TV Show: The Hardest Parts

Tom Rowland: It was it was good, and it was you know? And and, and and so that was great. But, you know, the what do you think the hardest thing about shooting a TV show is?

Miles Burghoff: The heart the hardest thing is by far leaving when the fish are biting. Yeah. Because because you're not you catch as many fish as you need for the show, and then you go do some some, you know, post, some b roll or, you know, something else. You do some tips or or something. And, for example, we're we're just down at Toledo Bend, last year and and, filming a kayak episode, and we got on, the most amazing shallow water, bass fishing bite. It was it was pretty amazing. And then as soon as we caught enough fish for the show, the, you know, the the the camera guy, you know, the our producer just said, we're done. And he's just like, we're we're good. Let's go in. We're like, no. It's it's it's like it's so painful to leave fish when they're when they're biting like that. But, you know, that's that's just, that's just how it goes. But that's a good problem to have. It's not always like that film in a show because you essentially you know, on a regular fishing day, if you catch 10 fish on a filming day, you're only gonna catch about two, probably Yeah. I'd say.

Tom Rowland: Well, tell why why is that? Well, number one I know why that is.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. You you know all too well. Like, you're a saltwater guy, so you got all kinds of stuff bite, and you throw shrimp in the water and pretty much anything. Sometimes. No. That's everything. Sometimes you're right.

Tom Rowland: No. Got another blue shoot going on right now, and there's a lot of shrimp going in the water.

Miles Burghoff: Well, you know, the the first thing is is there's a lot of moving parts when you're filming a show. And so you've got the camera you've got we've got three camera guys and a photographer on most shoots. And so we're trying to, make sure that everybody's got the camera rolling, the batteries aren't aren't dead. And sometimes the fish are schooling on the surface, and and you can't make a cast.

Tom Rowland: You

Miles Burghoff: just can't make a cast until all those cameras are up or at least the majority of them are. And so that's really tough because you're you're essentially wasting a lot of time, What quote, unquote wasting. I mean, it's obvious that we're, we're producing some some good shows, some good footage, but it's, you know, it is frustrating because it takes a long time. It's a it's a process. And and over time, I mean, this third year, I've kinda learned to kind of tone down a little bit, just kinda be there, and just be ready to go fishing when when the cameras are up. Yeah. You learn some patience.

Covering One Fish Really Well

Tom Rowland: Yeah. You you you definitely learn patience. And so the bass fishing show is definitely different than the saltwater shows, but there's also a tremendous amount of similarities there. And so we got into shooting saltwater experience immediately on the heels of having some success in the redfish tournaments

Miles Burghoff: Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: Which is very similar to the bass fishing. Man, the fish are there, you better catch them because they're probably not gonna be there in just a minute or this guy's gonna pull in on you and catch them, and those are probably the winning fish. So, you know, it's it's hurry. Hurry. Hurry. Catch fish. Go as fast as you can to get there. And and then, you know, as soon the the second that you feel like this is not happening, out. You're gone. Because otherwise otherwise, you're you are actually wasting time. Whereas the television show, man, we learned pretty pretty pretty quickly that it's not about catching a lot of fish. No. It's about covering one fish really well. And if you go and get ahead of the camera boat and catch a world record, it does not matter, and it does not count. Yeah. So what we had to do was was to all of a sudden, it started making sense to us. When he said it doesn't when when Hop, our producer, says, if you go out away from us and you catch a world record, it doesn't count. That really hit home with me because I went, okay. Well, that's just like if we're in a redfish tournament and we catch one that's 30 inches

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And the slot is is, you know, 27 inches If you catch one that's 28, it doesn't matter if he weighs 15. It doesn't count. Yeah. So we put it all into tournament, kind of into a tournament perspective of, okay. Look. The camera has to be there or there, but they have to give us the thumbs up, and then we can catch them. And when we do catch them with that thumb up, that means it counted.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: So that's what we're after. And if we go real fast and we break all the cameras and beat up all the camera guys, then it doesn't count. So the idea is we gotta go real slow. We've gotta get there. We've gotta let the cameras get in the right position, and then we have to catch the fish. I know that

Miles Burghoff: feeling so much now. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: It's it's harder, but, you know, it's, it's it's just something that you have to learn, and and and it it doesn't come quickly. And even even we're thirteen years into this, and still, you see a tailor a little bit further down there. You immediately start after it. Yeah. And and what we've learned, though, over over time is that if you are super patient, these fish will allow you to do things that you never thought were possible.

Miles Burghoff: Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: And some of those things have resulted in some of the best shows that we've ever filmed and, obviously, some of the best Sweetwater shows that that have ever been filmed as well. And that is something like seeing a tailing fish or a school of fish in some way, shape, or form, realizing that the light is not good from where you are right now or where the camera guy is. And the camera guy says, you know what would be great? Is if we were on the other side of that fish. And you're like, well, you can't do that. Why? Well, you're gonna scare him away? Well, we've already got enough fish for the show, so let's just try this. And you're, you know, the fisherman's sitting there going, this is never ever gonna work. So I'm just gonna sit down and eat a sandwich, and you guys go around there, and then you tell me if the fish is there. And so they go way around very slowly, and then they go, hey. He's still here doing the same thing. What? Really? And so now we've gotten the camera on the other side of the fish, and then we approach slowly, throw, you know, right into the sun. They're looking on the other side of the fish looking down sun, perfect light right at us. And those are some of the best shows, the best shots we've ever gotten. And and doing things, that's why I like to have a producer who is not necessarily a fisherman Yeah. For that reason. He's looking for art. He's looking at the light, and he's saying, look, man. We can shoot it like this, but it's gonna be it's gonna look like every other fishing show out there.

Miles Burghoff: If you

Tom Rowland: want this thing to be really great, we need to approach from the other side. Well, that's gonna be really hard to do. Well, I'm just telling you how to make a great show, man. That's that's how the that's how the conversation goes around our shoot. And then we're like, okay. Well, you know what? We wanna make a great show, so we're gonna try this

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: With all expectation that it's gonna fail. And you know what? A lot

Miles Burghoff: of most of the time it works, actually. It's kinda weird. You know? We have the same experience on on, Sweetwater. It's it's like sometimes we question our professional, you know Yeah. Quality. You know? I I think probably Peyote does because he's he's just like, well, you just do go over there and, you know, throw a frog. I'm just like, no, man. That's they're not gonna hit a frog.

Tom Rowland: Let me hit a frog. Yeah. But maybe they will. Yeah. And if they will, it'll be awesome. Yeah. But don't you find that, that you know, I find that as a fishing guide and as a television host and as just a regular angler and as a tournament fisherman, each one of these things has made me a better angler and a better you know, a more complete angler because, first of all, in a tournament, you're operating with Time restriction. Restrictions. You're you're time restricted. You are restricted on the type of tackle that you can use. Yep. You're restricted on whether or not you can use live bait in some tournaments. You're restricted on, you know, can you put a triple hook rig on there? I don't know. You're you're restricted.

Miles Burghoff: There are rules. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: There are always rules. So when you come around those rules and you you you you are successful within those rules Yeah. You have done something that you might not have done on another day. If you were on a regular guide trip, maybe you would've used live bait. If you were or maybe you woulda used an umbrella rig that was legally within the law. Mhmm. But not in that tournament. Right? Yeah. Like, maybe maybe I don't know. There's a there there may be a tournament where you can't fly fish Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: Or you

Tom Rowland: could fly fish or you can't and a lot of times in the in the keys, we'll have tournaments that, chumming is allowed in one tournament. Chumming is not allowed in another tournament. Live bait is allowed in one tournament. It's not allowed in another tournament. So you get in that tournament, and you have to just get in that frame of mind of, okay. Well, we're fly fishing all day in this tournament. That's what we're doing. K? So if you're successful in that, you're successful in ways that you might not have thought were possible in other ways. When you are on a guide trip, you are severely restricted sometimes by the skill level of your angler or the experience level of your angler, but then you get that person to catch a very, very difficult fish. And it's this feeling, this euphoric feeling of, wow. I overcame the situation. Yeah. And now we've been successful. And in the television world, it is okay. Now I am dragging around one, if not two, other boats. All of these people slamming hatches. Yeah. Cooler lids slamming. It's loud, and they're telling me that I can't fish the way that I need to fish to catch these fish.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: But I'm gonna do what they say. We're gonna take their suggestions, and then we're still gonna be successful. And when when those things happen, it just makes me sit back and sometimes mostly, it's a humbling situation going, man, I really thought I knew about this situation. I really thought I knew what was going on here. But, obviously, there are a lot of other ways to Yeah. To skin a cat.

Fishing Your Strengths

Miles Burghoff: It really it really does open up your eyes to to, you know, the a different you know, the one thing that I think that I've taken away from film in Sweetwater is I think I'm a more intuitive angler because of it. And I think that's so important. And it it seems because half. Because we're so far behind the curve when it comes to the amount of time that we're able to to fish and how many cast we can get in.

Tom Rowland: You mean you don't always leave the docket for at 4AM? Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: We we do, but the We call it the crack the cameras don't get up

Tom Rowland: till eight. We call it the crack of noon fishing team.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. Pretty much is that's that's how it goes. But what that forces you to do is you have to use your strengths Yes. And focus on your strengths. You can't just start doing some funky stuff that you, that you read about in a magazine or a, you know, a book somewhere. It's no time to to really experiment. And in many cases, you can, but what it forces you to do is it it forces you to take out a lot of the science out of it, which it's that sounds like it's kind of counterintuitive. But, really, fish are very instinctual. I mean, that's that's all they have is their instincts. Mhmm. That's what dictates their habits. And once you kind of make things kinda simple and kind of focus on on the the simple tactics and your strengths, it it seems to work out a whole lot better. Like, if you if you watch Sweetwater, you notice that I throw a chatter bait a lot. Yeah. That's your thing. Throwing chatter baits, I it is my thing because it works, and I know it. And I I know how many different circumstances I can throw that thing in and and catch fish. And that's that's the thing is I think that that that, filming has made fishing more simple for me. I'm not making it more difficult, which is so important, I think. And I take that for my tournament fishing. I I end up, you know, before, I've the worst tournaments I've had, I've overthought it. I've end up ended up, you know, doing something that I'm not very comfortable with. It too technical, you know, something that that say Kevin Van Damme, he's really good at throwing deep diving crankbaits. I'm not good at throwing deep diving crankbaits, but that lake is known for winning with deep diving crankbaits. If I try to do that, I'm competing against somebody else Right. And not the fish. So I just focus on my my strengths, and, and the show is really maybe, remember that. Because when I first started really doing well in tournaments, I started making a name for myself. That's what I was doing. I was doing the things that I enjoyed to do the most and could do better than most anybody else. I wasn't venturing off into, you know, uncharted territory as far as techniques and and fishing styles. I was focusing on what what I enjoyed to do. And and the same thing with with Sweetwater. I've tried, you know, being under the gun and and trying, you know, techniques that Joey likes to throw, you know, like a drop shot or something like that. And I can't throw a drop shot like Joey can. And and maybe Joey can't throw a a chatter bait like I can. So it's like you just gotta fish your strengths and kinda keep it simple. That's what I've kind of taken away from from, filming Sweetwater, and it has really helped me on the tournament trail.

Confidence: The Common Denominator

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Well, focusing on your strengths. The strengths really you know, I don't know. The the more I learn about fishing, the more I realize I really don't know much about fishing at all. And, I think that's the I think that's the educational cycle. You get to a place where you feel like you really got this thing licked, man. You you know it, man, inside and out. There are no tricks that you don't know. And the next thing you know, something happens, and you'd realize, holy moly. I don't really know anything about this. Like Yeah. I'm gonna have to rethink everything. And so as I as I've gotten a little bit older and certainly have more and more experience, I realized, man, I don't know that I know anything about, about fishing, and there's a tremendous amount of different ways that you can get to the same result of catching the fish.

Miles Burghoff: Yes.

Tom Rowland: You can do it from, you know, like you're saying, like Joey does and what you do. You could never convince me that you two guys or guys like Scott Walker and Steve Roger or guys like me and Rich that, well, certainly not not not you and Joey. Now I'm not I'm not an expert bass fisherman, but I've fished around you guys and fished with you guys enough to know both of you can handle a rod very well. Mhmm. So you would have a hard time convincing me that Joey can't throw a chatter bait like you or you can't throw a drop shot like him. To me, what it boils down to is you don't have the confidence in the drop shot like he does. Mhmm. He doesn't have the confidence in the chatter bait like you do, So you're gonna fish it differently, harder, stick with it longer. Yes. And and and maybe maybe okay. Well, it's not working here. I'm gonna slow it down. I'm gonna get it deeper. I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna do that with it because you have the confidence.

Miles Burghoff: Yes.

Tom Rowland: It's not the rod skill. It's not no.

Miles Burghoff: It it has has nothing to do with technical skill. It all it all it is is the fact that the that very subtle differences in presentation is what makes or breaks a pattern or, you know, a bite. Yeah. And and when it comes to building upon your strengths, it's anybody can flip and pitch, you know, just as good as, you know, anybody else. You know? At the pro circuit, everybody's pretty much and I even played in the field as as far as, technical skill. But it's it's it's all the mental game. You know? It's I've I've noticed a distinct difference in the way that I I retrieve I'll use the chatterbait as an example again. Retrieve a chatterbait when I know I'm gonna get a bite. There's a distinct difference, and and I I'm getting the bite because I know I'm gonna get the bite. It's kind of

Tom Rowland: Right.

Miles Burghoff: You know? But if if I don't have confidence in it, I don't have the experience with, you know, the how that that bait feels and what the fish are really, you know, focusing on as far as the retrieve goes, then I'm probably not gonna do very good with it.

Tom Rowland: Right. Well, and like I say, I think I think that a tremendous amount of that boils down to confidence, how long you're willing to stick with it. The if you're willing to stick with it longer, you're learning those subtle those subtle things. You are you are saying, you know, I've been through this before. Five more cash. We'll see what happens. Whereas somebody else that doesn't have the confidence in it, it's a new lure to them. It's a new it's a new technique. It's a new way of fishing that lure. Maybe they don't stick with it long enough to to get that one bump to to to where, oh, if I slow it down a little bit Yeah. Yeah. Now I've got it. And it's the same thing in saltwater. It's the same thing with with different types of baits. It's the same thing with with with all of that. But it it does boil down to the to the confidence, and that's that's really so much of what fishing is. And that is the one consistent thing that I have that I keep going back to as I as I say that, you know, I learned one thing, and then I realized I don't know anything. What I do know is that is that fishing is about confidence. It's about being confident in

Miles Burghoff: your gear,

Tom Rowland: in your in your technique, in in in your surroundings, in the area, whatever. It's about that. And if you have that confidence, you can make some amazing things happen

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: In some very poor poor conditions.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. I've I've my experience with confidence confidence is is it's a funny thing because I I feel like sometimes a confidence is misused, and it could be misused, and it could be a negative.

Tom Rowland: How do you misuse confidence you say with something when it's obviously important?

Miles Burghoff: Well, for instance, a lot of people say they have a confidence color or a confidence bait. When you put confidence in a object that, you know, like color or the actual bait Mhmm. You're limiting your potential. You have to have confidence in your ability to choose that bait to choose that color. And once you have that that confidence that's much more broad and that allows you to, you know, perform in in different different conditions, that's how you properly use confidence. Mhmm. But when you put it in something that that, you know, like like, a a certain little bait that you've caught a lot of fish on, you know, I've seen it time and time again. The confidence baits that I used to have in the past would fail during the tournament for for whatever reason.

Instinctual Angling and Learning Florida

Tom Rowland: Yeah. I could see that. I could see that in in not only just the baits that you're using and the techniques that you're using, but also, you know, one of the common things in the Florida Keys were for guys to get on them a milk route where they fish this spot and this spot and this spot, and and the fishing's no good. Fishing history. Yeah. They they just no. Fishing's no good today. Yeah. But, you know, they never got outside of their milk route. They never Yeah. Yeah. They never they never, experienced something different. And if they had, maybe they would have seen something different. But I was you know, all of this stuff that you're talking about obviously comes from a tremendous amount of of, of experience in a lot of different lakes. Yes. So you lived in California for a little while. Now you're moving back to Florida. Where where do you find your confidence area is, and where do where is the easiest place for you

Miles Burghoff: to fish? Florida. Okeechobee.

Tom Rowland: Easiest way. Okeechobee. Because of, of your college experience? You went to college

Miles Burghoff: in Yeah. Orlando. Went to UCF. And, man, it took me a long time to figure out Florida. I moved there specifically because if you look at the tournament trail, the the tournaments always start in Florida in January or February.

Tom Rowland: It's like Louisiana for us in the

Miles Burghoff: Redfish Trail. That's a hot spot. Yeah. And the the the tour pros either hate Florida or they absolutely love it. And some of the biggest bombs that that people have, like, that's where the that's where the leaderboard really takes a hit is is Florida generally. And so I was just like, you know, I need to figure that out because having good momentum starting the year, it's really important. So I need to go down there and learn Florida. So I moved down there, and I think the reason why I feel so comfortable in Florida, it it doesn't I just I just got back from living in California for a few years, and I I got back to Florida, and I jumped right back into it. I mean, I didn't miss a beat. I've enjoyed myself, and I've caught a lot of fish and and and cashed quite a few checks so far. And, and the reason for that is that I didn't go fishing with other people when I first moved to Florida. I didn't fish with my first person in Florida for until, like, the fourth year I was there. Literally did not go fishing with anybody for four years. I had a lot of really down, you know, days. A lot of them. I mean, a ton. I was I wasn't catching any big fish. I wasn't doing good in any tournaments, but then all of a sudden, I started because of all my experience that I my experience, not somebody on the back of the boat's experience or another person's experience because I was that that kind of loner kid that didn't know anybody. I had these experiences, so I could I could know the little intricacies of of what was going on at that particular moment, which is really important, those little those little details. You know, that's why doc talk can be so dangerous is because the how somebody else caught a fish, there's something very, very small that they did to to catch that fish. And so what I learned by just fishing by myself is I learned how to trust my own instincts. Mhmm. And I'm a firm believer. Maybe I'm a little bit holistic with my my thought process in in in fishing, but I'm a big believer in instinctual angling. Going out there and just listening to your gut instinct, and just kinda fishing that moment. You build an instinct over time. You don't you're not That's right. You're not growing with you know, you're you're not born with it. You grow it over time, and you grow it by your own experiences, period. Nobody else's experience.

Tom Rowland: So don't you think when you're saying that to somebody that is getting started in this Frustrating. Building those experiences, of course, it's frustrating. But but as you build a wider base, it's just like building a building. You know?

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: You can have a building that looks like a pyramid that's, you know, stand the test of time, wide base, and Yeah. You know, and build up from there. Or you can you can build a skyscraper that's very, very thin on the bottom. And what I mean by that, and it's the same thing in saltwater, is you can either choose to build this instinct like you're talking about

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Through a a select few techniques and a select few lakes and a select few spots in saltwater. Yeah. Or you can choose to build that instinct with a tremendous amount

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Of techniques, skills, rods. I know people that don't know how to fish with a spinning rod. I know fit people that don't know how to how to throw a a fly rod. I know people that don't know how to throw a bait caster. Right? All of them are tools to me like a golf bag. I I want to be an expert with every single one. Yes. I want to be able to look at a bass fisherman's tackle box and say, man, I can catch redfish on that. I can catch tarpon on that. I know how to fish this. Wow. I wonder what they do with that. I could probably if a bass will eat it, I'm sure I can find a fish that will eat it. And so I want to you be able to one one of the things that would help me to develop that instinct and help me to do do better in the tournaments and as a fishing guide is to embrace all of the techniques, to embrace all of the spots, to learn all of the Florida Keys. And you know what? The only way to do that is to have the dry days to go out with the fly rod or go out with the the bait caster or the spinning rod if you're not familiar with spin casting or or whatever, the ferry rod, whatever bass fisherman call it, and and go out and try it. Yeah. Right? And you've gotta have the dry days. You've gotta have those days where you're not catching anything, and it's really frustrating. Yeah. But if you embrace all of those techniques Yeah. I feel like you're building a wider base. You have more experience to draw from.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. I I agree. I I I feel that, you you know, when I was first learning, I was absorbing everything. I was I was taking all the magazines. I had a massive collection of it, magazines. My my truck couldn't tow my my trailer specifically because of my magazine collection. I actually had to leave it at one RV resort so I could move it to another one. I I I slept with my magazines pretty much. And so I had all these books and magazines magazines are these we're talking about? Yeah. Bassmaster. Yeah. Fishporn. Yeah. And, and so, you know, I absorbed all that, and so I learned a lot of different techniques, everything I could. If there was a new technique, I learned it. Mhmm. But the thing that I also learned over time that has really helped me is that there's some techniques that I need to pick and choose. Like, there's there's certain there's certain techniques that I'm beating a dead horse with personally. It's not my style. I'm a I'm a shallow water power fisherman, and I've learned to really embrace that. And I tell you what, I I have way more, you know, checks when I do that than, than when I don't.

Tom Rowland: You know? Yeah. That's interesting. And I guess if you were to if you were to see that that that's your strength and you were going to attack your weakness, then the way to the way to do that, which is something that you've already said that you did, was you you kind of afraid of Florida, so you moved there. Yeah. Like so if you were to attack this weakness, the way to do it would be to to move to a place or to to choose to fish a a lake that didn't have the shallow water like you like to fish.

Miles Burghoff: You have to learn the deep water. And you and you you can do that, and I've I've tried doing that. And I'm gonna be kind of counter to I mean, everybody's different as far as as what they need to but my my whole philosophy is that in sports and in anything great, you know, any type of, you know, art or or anything, you have to have a specific strength. Okay? There's nobody that is just the best at everything. Okay? Yeah. Yeah. You look at any sport and the the greatest in each sport, it's not like, you know, Tom Brady's, you know, doing everything on that field. He's really strong at something. Mhmm. And that's, you know, what a team is all about. And, when it comes to to fishing, it's the it's the same exact thing. There's you look at somebody like Kevin Van Dam. I'm not gonna throw down with him with deep diving crankbaits. Mhmm. You look at somebody like, oh, shoot. Who would I I was gonna say, like, Skitt Reese with a a drop shot or something. Mhmm. Or no. Aaron Martin's with a drop shot. Skie Reiss is good with a drop shot, but Aaron Martin's is really good with it. I'm not throwing down with that guy. But when it comes to shallow water power fishing, I'm not competing against those guys. I'm competing against the fish because I am in my element. That is my playground. That's where I go to work. For me, that's that's kind of been the whole key to to my success is, like, I had two years where I was doing terrible, and it was because I was trying to embrace those other techniques. Mhmm. And so you've gotta what you've gotta do is you've gotta learn everything and then throw everything that you don't feel comfortable with kind of out the window. Or or or continue to to really? Did he say that?

Absorb What Is Useful: The Bruce Lee Philosophy

Tom Rowland: No. There's a very famous Bruce Lee quote that that says, almost exactly that. Yeah. To to embrace embrace everything.

Miles Burghoff: The the the punch, I wanna I wanna, I want to, what was it? What did he say? I want I wanna I believe in the guy that that can that knows one punt or practices one punch a thousand times, then then,

Tom Rowland: you know, it was it was something to to the That

Miles Burghoff: was a really bad recall of

Tom Rowland: a quote. Yeah. And it was a different quote, but it was something you you shouldn't be afraid of the guy that knows 10,000 moves, but the guy Yeah. Has practiced That's what it was. 10,000 times. Yeah. It was just certainly true in wrestling, which is my my domain there. But in in, in in this, it was it was basically, learn as much as you possibly can.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Keep what is useful. Throw away what's not. Yeah. And and that was Bruce Lee's philosophy of, you know, he was the he was the first guy that you know, Bruce Lee was was really the father of modern day UFC fighting because he, at the time of Bruce Lee, he was he was a guy that, was contrary to so much Yeah. Of of what was going on in martial arts. You were either a taekwondo guy or you were a judo guy or you were you know, all of these different things. And Bruce Lee was the first guy that said, well, look, man. There's there's something in judo that's really good. Yeah. You can Whip people's ass with that. And then over here, this this has something that's really interesting. Yeah. And, you know, western boxing is is interesting for these reasons. And I'm gonna absorb what's useful, and I'm gonna throw away everything else. And that's a that's a really good point. And and one thing that I need to mention when it

Miles Burghoff: comes to this whole this whole topic is the fact that I'm not just I don't just fish shallow. K? Because I learned all these different techniques, I also learned how to fish in clear water. I learned techniques that I really felt confident in and and enjoyed fishing clear clear water, deep water, and shallow water in all different conditions. So it's really important to not only, become, have a strength, but also have strengths in each category. Mhmm. Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: Is you know, you can't you can't be the best at everything. There's always gonna be somebody that's better at you, and you need to make sure that you're not playing against somebody that's better at you than than or better than you at something.

Tom Rowland: Right.

Miles Burghoff: Right. You know, because that's that's just in fishing, I I think that a lot of people overlook that, but nobody's gonna do something, in in a professional sport, you know, like football or baseball. They're not gonna they're not gonna do something that somebody else that's standing right across from them can do way better and they know it. Right. So why would you get that

Life on the Road: Podcasts and Audiobooks

Tom Rowland: fisher You gotta find a way, and that's what you've done. So when you're going, I always think about being a bass fisherman and being a rodeo cowboy or a professional wrestler as kind of as kind of a similar kind of deal. Like, here you are in this one place, and tournament's over. Pack it up, move on. So same kinda deal with with a with a rodeo cowboy. You know, they they ride the rodeo, they put their stuff up, they get in the truck, and they head to the next one. Yeah. And there's a lot of time spent between one venue and the next. And I always kinda wonder like, I I pass a lot of bass fishermen on the road, and I always kinda wonder. It seems like seems like kind of a solitary existence. Some people have somebody else in the truck with them, but not not not many. They're usually by themselves. What do you do when you're when you're doing that much driving?

Miles Burghoff: I make a lot of phone calls, and I listen to a lot of music and podcasts. As of as of recently, podcasts have kinda taken over until I run out of data on my phone, which happens within the first three days of each month.

Tom Rowland: Well, I also listen to a ton of podcasts. What what do you like?

Miles Burghoff: School of Greatness is a really good one. House. That one yeah. That one's a really good one. There's a lot of really cool stories on that. I like some of the the the murder mysteries.

Tom Rowland: Oh, yeah. Turn me on

Miles Burghoff: to a couple of those. Yeah. Like, Up and Vanished, really good one. I don't know. I don't know. Serial was a good one. Yeah. Serial was, like, the first one to kind of, that was the catalyst for all these different more murder mystery Yeah. Podcasts. Well, I

Tom Rowland: loved I loved, Serial, and and that really grabbed me. And I was already a podcast listener, but more of conversational. It's like like what we're doing here. We just talked. But, Cereal was this obviously incredibly well researched, unbelievably well produced thing where they it was an art form, man. They they took the story, and they took some general conversation by the narrator. And then they then they insert these little pieces of interviews with a little bit of music here and there to tell the story. It was In its own was unbelievable.

Miles Burghoff: It was just like it wasn't even they told it was was was beyond question one of the greatest things to have listened to ever. Much better than TV because TV is taking I mean, they they just had to paint such an intricate picture.

Tom Rowland: But, you know, the only thing that we could even begin to compare serial to is making a murderer on Netflix.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. K.

Tom Rowland: So they did a very good job.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. They did.

Tom Rowland: They did a very good job. It was kinda similar kinda thing where they tell a story through a narration, then they bring in interviews, they bring in, pieces of film, they bring in this and that, and tell the story that in its own, if it was a Hollywood movie, you wouldn't believe it because the truth is stranger than fiction.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And, you know, I I love podcasts like that. I listen to a ton of podcasts. I like I like history ones. I'm a big fan of Joe Rogan's podcast, Lewis Howes. I like, some that are not well known at all. There was one that that I actually was on called wrestling with success, and then it, changed to, success through failure.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And, is this guy, Jim Harshaw, he was a great, collegiate wrestler, and he tells these stories about, how failure has really helped people to find their success ultimately. And that it that it wouldn't be possible without failure, and therefore, you should embrace failure.

Miles Burghoff: Right? Like like

Tom Rowland: Well, I think that's kinda what we're talking about about, like, the goes right in back in. Yeah. About the phishing thing is that is that you've gotta embrace failure. You gotta go places, and you gotta fish and and do things that don't work so that you know when it counts, you know that it's probably not gonna work.

Miles Burghoff: You gotta know what you suck at.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. But I like that. I also do a lot of driving. I drive, you know, to Key West a lot, you know, around the state of Florida, and, and then, you know, follow my children around as they're doing their their athletic events, whether it's wrestling or or cheerleading or or lacrosse. So I'm all over the country too, and the podcast has just really it has really revolutionized what I do. That I used to listen to a lot of audiobooks, so I do a lot of, running and and long exercise. And I've always listened to audiobooks. I wish I had known this when I was in high school because, man, I am not a good reader. I'm just not. I I mean, as a paper book, you know I

Miles Burghoff: fall asleep after the first page.

Tom Rowland: Do too. I fall asleep. And what I found is that, man, if I can be running and listening to something, my retention of that material is about it's not, like, a little bit better.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: It's, like, 10,000 times better. I can remember quotes. I can remember all this different stuff if I am doing some sort of a moving, and I'm able to listen to this stuff. So driving is very similar. If I'm driving and and I'm the only one in the car, that's a big thing.

Miles Burghoff: I need

Tom Rowland: to be the only one there so I can adjust the the volume to where I I want it, and it's usually booming. Like an like a podcast is booming Yeah. Really loud. And I don't know, man. I just absorb it. I find that that it makes the time pass really quickly. Have you ever listened to, Dan Carlin's Hardcore History?

Miles Burghoff: No. No. I haven't listened to that one.

Tom Rowland: If you're gonna drive to California, you could make it probably just by stopping for gas, by by listening to Dan Carlin's, blueprint for Armageddon. Oh, man. Unbelievable. I mean, there's another guy. That's a guy that is as good as well, it it is, but what he does is he tells stories about history that that you already know, you studied in school, and it was boring. And then he finds a way to tell it in a way that it's captivating.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And and he he's he's like that because and he's turning out that kind of material because he's as passionate about that as you and I are about fishing.

Miles Burghoff: Mhmm.

Tom Rowland: And he finds this way to connect with the audience and finds this way to bring this story to life like you've never heard it before. So you're listening to how World War one started. And and you're like, well, you know, I kinda remember how we're a little bit about World War one or World War two or Vietnam or or any any historical period of time. Mhmm. But he just finds a way to to just tell it in such a way that's that's awesome. But I'll have to check out these these mystery ones because I really like that. Like, if they leave you hanging a little bit Oh.

Miles Burghoff: You gotta get out. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: You get some gas, and you're like, god. I can't wait to start that car up and get back in there.

Miles Burghoff: I won't I won't I won't do another podcast that that hasn't ended already. I need closure. I can't I can't wait

Tom Rowland: for Like, the next week would start a serial.

Miles Burghoff: I am the quintessential millennial

Tom Rowland: You're a Benjammer.

Miles Burghoff: Comes to yeah. I need to I need to know now what happens next.

Tom Rowland: Well, you wouldn't just skip to the last step.

Miles Burghoff: No. No. No. But, I mean, I can't wait for the next episode. They you because they always tease you at the end of those those mysteries. Like, they give you a little clip of a of a phone conversation that's like, oh, man. Yeah. Oh, this is gonna

Tom Rowland: be big. Yeah. Gotta wait a week. Oh, yeah. But I don't know. I also find that that this new way of of consuming stuff is, you know, binge watching on Netflix or or listening to, you know, the entire season of serial in in thirteen hours straight is I find that, again, I retain the material better. Like, if I have to wait a week Yeah. Then even though they do a little pretty nice job right at the beginning of kinda catching you up to what happened on the last one, I still find that it's it's more enjoyable for me to just, you know, do quite a few together.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: And then the other thing is I find that, like, even like Lewis Howes or Joe Rogan or somebody, I'll listen to two or three of their podcasts, And, you know, they're long. You know, three hours long. Yeah. I like those.

Miles Burghoff: Give them

Tom Rowland: a break. Then I'll give them I'll put them down for a while, and I'll go I'll move on to something else. Yeah. And and then come back, you know, few weeks later, listen to four or five, three, four, five, whatever. And, and that keeps it fresh for me. I I like to do that. But I've on my phone, man, I've got I've got ton. Let's see what else I got on here.

Miles Burghoff: Ika live was the one that that got me interested in, in podcasts. I started listening to that, and, oh, dude, I was hooked. Those guys are a hoot, man.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, Jocko Willink. Do you know who he is? No. Okay. Jocko Willink is a Navy SEAL, and he wrote this book called Extreme Ownership. And Oh, yeah. Probably I know. Best book I've ever read. He has a podcast. There's now 64 episodes. I'm looking on my phone. That's one that I would highly recommend. Let's see. Let me look at my podcast. I tried that social media marketing one that you told me about. It was okay. Kinda lost me a little bit. Keep hammering, Cameron Haines. Very good. I listened to a lot of them on on, what to eat and and working out and stuff. Found My Fitness. How about Radiolab? Haven't

Miles Burghoff: listened to that one.

Tom Rowland: Oh, man. Those are good. Those are good. As far as fishing, if you're into fly fishing, April Vokey, she does a fly fishing one, and she has some really, really good guests on that. Dan Carlin's hardcore history, part of manliness. Those keep me busy for the most part. Radiolab Radiolab is another one that is that is incredibly well done, very well produced. It's not just conversation. These are well written stories. Yeah.

Road Trip Music, Tenacious D, and Music on the Boat

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And they they they tell it in a way that is that is really good. I like that. So do you think all bass fishermen are basically doing kind of the same thing when they're traveling from place to place like that?

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. Pretty much. I mean, I I would say I used to be really, really like, I could not I planned my my trip based on my my music. I guess that's kind of a confusing way to put it, but I actually plan my music based on my trip. Like, I would I know how I'd feel during a a certain part of the trip, so I'd actually set out my CDs. Like, dude, as soon as it started getting dark, I'd put on, like, Wish You Were Here, Pink Floyd. And Woah. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Put me right to sleep.

Miles Burghoff: Dude. Yeah. The shine on you crazy diamond right when the sun's going down Yeah.

Tom Rowland: Is is

Miles Burghoff: yeah. It's a pretty pretty awesome feeling.

Tom Rowland: Tell me, what is it what is it at, 03:00 in the morning when you gotta push through? That's it? Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: Led Zeppelin, and I started with, Ramble On. Oh. Yeah. So I actually had a

Tom Rowland: mix not what I choose.

Miles Burghoff: I had a mix. And, but, you know, but that's if I just wake up. If I have already been awake and I've been driving during that time

Tom Rowland: This is the time when you gotta push through, man. You're gonna drop the boat in at five, probably three now. Probably two or a tool.

Miles Burghoff: Like some tool. Yeah. I go with? What? The d. The tenacious d. Tenacious d. Dude, that's actually that that's actually one of my Oh. Dude, I I am all about tenacious d because it's one of the only albums that I can sing to from beginning to end. Yes.

Tom Rowland: And it just wakes me up. You can sing your lungs out. Oh, yeah. And, you know, it is it is always it is always on my phone. And now the phones are different because you have, like, Spotify and stuff. Yeah. But, the album I've got it on my phone right now. I I do too. Tribute. Yes. The album is just the Tenacious d album. Yep. 21 songs. Kielbasa, one note, tribute, Wonder Boy.

Miles Burghoff: Wonder Boy. A couple

Tom Rowland: of ones that we might not say. Explosivo, Dio, Inward Singing, Kyle Quit the Band, The Road, cock push ups, Lee, friendship test, friendship, karate schnitzel, karate, rock your socks, drive through, double team, city hall, and you're there. All of a

Miles Burghoff: sudden, you're there. Yeah. I no. It's tonight, that that album is actually I'm glad you brought that up because it if I am really, really tired, it usually goes you're playing it right now? Just a little bit.

Tom Rowland: It's in the back. It's in the back. You won't even be able to tell.

Miles Burghoff: Oh, yeah. That's this will get you through

Tom Rowland: right here. But you can't do the air drum. It only matters if it rocks.

Miles Burghoff: The main thing that we do is to rock your socks off.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. See, you know what's up.

Miles Burghoff: I don't I don't wear socks, but another one that's on the kind of the same level for me is Pink Floyd The Wall. Pink Floyd is my favorite band. And but I can only play it during I have to honor it by playing it during certain times of the day when I'm in that mood.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: And I can't play it during the daytime. Like, it's gotta be, like, nighttime or dark outside?

Tom Rowland: So this is this is something that I've noticed about about well, my friends, mostly. So my friends are my friends consist of the most eclectic group of people that you would ever run into Yeah. If you were to line them all up against the wall. So most of them, there is one thing that that is consistent. The constant of my friends. They are passionate people. Sometimes they're creatives. Sometimes they are exceptionally good at what they do. They might be a lawyer. They might be a doctor. They might be a fisherman. They might be whatever. So with this group of people, I've got workout guys, I've got fishing guys, I've got hunting guys, and then I've got people that in my in my group of friends that don't even know that I fish for a living. They they just don't. They and then then a whole bunch of people that think I work out for a living.

Miles Burghoff: Well, I if at your house, there's there's no way that I would have taken fishing from this place.

Tom Rowland: Well, no. You hadn't seen that room. Yeah. But and then I have another room at at another place. But the one thing that holds true is each of these people has some wild ass idiosyncrasies that make us all really weird. We are. It's like Yeah. Like, you're you're wanting to honor Pink Floyd by playing them at a certain time of the day. That's, that's that's interesting. Do you find that other bass fishermen are are as as interested in their music? Well yeah.

Miles Burghoff: I mean, everybody's got their their own thing. I I don't know

Tom Rowland: if there is do this. Take your ear. That I've that I've I've I've thought should take off, but it hasn't. How come nobody listens to music on the boat?

Miles Burghoff: I do on occasion, but I honestly can't do it while I'm while I'm fishing

Tom Rowland: out there for I can't fifteen hours a day. Can't you just put on some headphones or what?

Miles Burghoff: Jimmy Buffett. Jimmy Buffett. The headphones are a no no because you can't hear your surroundings. So you can't hear a fish jump or, you know, so on and so forth. Right. That's that's why because, you know, you're taking those those audible and visual cues from, you know, your surroundings to help you build the that puzzle.

Tom Rowland: Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: And so with music, it kinda takes away from that.

Tom Rowland: It's interesting, man. When I'm driving, though, when I'm driving my boat from location to location, I crank that up, man. It's interesting. I love music. I love listening to music. I will sometimes drive for hours at a time in complete silence. Just give it a break, you know, or or just think of time or maybe you find yourself getting off the phone and you put the phone down. And the next thing you know, you're like, man, I just drove for two hours. It's been completely silent. So that does happen. But, you know, I almost always have a stereo in my boat Yeah. Of some sort. Now it's really easy. You just get the speakers. You got the sonic hub thing. The yeah.

Miles Burghoff: And and you

Tom Rowland: just plug in your you just plug in your your iPod, and next thing you know, you're listening to whatever you want. But you know when I listen to music? When I'm washing the boat. Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: That's it. When I'm working on tackling.

Tom Rowland: I don't listen. I don't listen, man. I don't listen to it when I'm fishing. I don't listen to it when I'm driving the boat. I don't listen to it anytime at all. Because when I'm driving the boat, I'm constantly listening for something to explode. Like, every Not I always think engine? I always think that at any second, something's gonna something's just gonna let loose. And you you know how it is, man. You're just we're just kind of driving along, and you're like, what was that noise? Yeah. Like, it's just a different noise. And you're like, I'm I'm 30 miles offshore. Like, this is not good. Like, what is that noise? Should I turn around now? Yeah. Like, you know, and so then oh, it's just a water bottle rolling around

Miles Burghoff: the floor. Or I have the same thing.

Tom Rowland: It's my client making this funny sound with his mouth. It's like, have a could you please stop that? Like, you're making me super nervous. But I don't listen to music, man, because you miss all of that stuff. You miss those opportunities where where you're hearing something might happen to the boat or you're you're you you just like you say, you know, you you see a a a fish jump or or hear something. I'd never have gotten into listening to it. But, you know, you you you got this whole pimp my boat thing, and you got you know, you're looking at the trucks that that a lot of the bass fishermen are driving and a lot of the saltwater guys are driving too, and you're thinking, man, that guy's probably got a rock and stereo on his boat, which I'm sure some do. Yeah. But I haven't seen anybody listen to music Yeah. On their I

Miles Burghoff: actually I don't listen to it as much, and there was, like, one turning point for me. So I I bought this boat. It was actually Oakley Big Bass boat. And, so I bought it after, you know, they they're when they were gonna give it back to Nitro, and I was just like, I want it. So I'll buy it. And so the first tournament was on Okeechobee, and, and I was super excited because they had a really awesome Sony stereo system and a nice big old amp and and four speakers in it. So it got really loud. And so I'm making this run, and I am just amped up on life. You know? I'm I'm running through these little narrow boat trails and stuff on on Okeechobee, get out to this wide open space down on the North Shore area, and I'm, like, I'm rocking out to, like, Alice in Chains. And, and then and I'm driving by all of these guys, and, you know, I probably drove by, like, 20 guys just fishing in this open water area. And then I sat down, turned off the music, and I realized how how quiet it was and how much of a ruckus I made. I felt like such an ass just by doing that. It was I I mean, I was just like, and ever since, I was just like, man, you know, it's kind of subconsciously, you're just like, you know, I'm out here for nature. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: But you'd still think there'd be that bad boy. You know, the the bass fisherman I

Miles Burghoff: was that bad boy that one time.

Tom Rowland: With the Glenplake mohawk that just listens to music super loud and Yeah. There's they exist. Shit. They they're

Miles Burghoff: usually yeah. They exist. They're usually at at the club level. Oh. Because they they wanna they wanna show off the the, the the big speakers and yeah. But when you get I don't know. There's I'm I'm not saying anything against, you know, club level guys, but it's like I don't know. I I I don't see a whole lot of people really rocking out to it. There's no place for it. Yeah. Really isn't. Yeah. Sometimes you see it at the launch ramp in the morning. Yeah. Like, sometimes I'll I'll be rocking some tool pretty hardcore when I get the launch ramp. I'm that guy.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. Yeah.

Miles Burghoff: Every once in a while.

Tom Rowland: Not anymore. Miss your turn. Somebody's going, hey, man. It's your turn. Go in. Back in. Back in.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah.

Tom Rowland: I guess you didn't hear me. I'm in. See you. Yeah. Next thing you know, you're like, hey, man. How come you just cut in front of me? I was yelling at you for thirty minutes. You were listening to tool. Yeah. It's a good excuse.

The New Phoenix Boat and Wrap-Up

Tom Rowland: Alright. So you're here picking up a boat.

Miles Burghoff: Right? Yep. Brand new Phoenix nine twenty Pro XP, man. Really stoked on it. It's got a Yamaha on it. And I'm really excited about, getting a Yamaha because I've been guiding in Alaska for twelve years during the summers, and, and we rely on Yamaha for our lives. Really, you know, when you're fishing in those really rough conditions, you have to transition from, you know, one part of the, the inside passage to the other in, like, 10 foot waves, which doesn't sound like a whole lot, but they get pretty close together. Pretty scary. You know? Or even bigger

Tom Rowland: boat is that?

Miles Burghoff: They're, like, 23 footer. 23 footer. And how big are the waves? They're they're I mean, they they can range up to 15 feet. I've been in in 13 footers is the biggest I've been in, but they are we've got tremendous tides is the is the problem. So they get really wind and the tide. Get really close together. Again, so it's not there mess you up. It's nothing like rollers that you see out in open ocean. But, anyways, yeah, really excited about fishing out of that boat. Really super stoked.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. So did you get a stereo in that thing?

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. I've got the Sonic Hub.

Tom Rowland: Nice. Yeah. Nice. Well, we're gonna go pick that thing up tomorrow, and then we'll check it out. Maybe we'll, we'll do another one, do another podcast on the on the new boat. Oh, that'd be sweet. That's cool. Well, I think this has been good to catch up and, Been fun. Man, we touched on a lot of different things, sponsorship and getting started and weirdness

Miles Burghoff: and podcasts

Tom Rowland: and wow. Just a wild conversation. But you know what? That's really, when I first started thinking about doing a podcast, I would have these conversations with my friends, fishing friends, workout friends, whatever. And we're talking about all this crazy stuff, and I'm thinking, man

Miles Burghoff: This should be recorded.

Tom Rowland: I think people would like to know this stuff. Yeah. I mean, really, when it when it especially about the sponsorship, that's that. That. People really won't know about that.

Miles Burghoff: I think that's if anybody's they should just fast forward to that.

Tom Rowland: Yeah. And then and then forget all the stuff about Pink Floyd and Tenacious d. But if you don't know who Tenacious d is, do yourself a favor. Check it out. It's Jack Black doing his finest work. And Kyle Gass.

Miles Burghoff: You gotta give Kyle Gass.

Tom Rowland: Well, I would I I was going there, man. You got there too quickly. Kyle Gass, who is also known for being an elf and many other things. A man child. He is a man child. And you've met Kyle Gass. Right?

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. He actually, pushed me in the face. Sweet. Because my wife and I were at the stage, and and he, like, pushed me away so that he could talk to your wife. Yeah. Yeah. Just just just, you know, he was just joking, sort of, I guess. I don't know. I hope. But he was he was super cool after the show. We got to hang out with him all the time.

Tom Rowland: See the movie where where, you know, they get ready to to write the the greatest song in the world Yeah. And then they forget to push record? The the what would you say if I

Miles Burghoff: told you that I forgot

Tom Rowland: to push record? Oh, well. Always push record. Always

Miles Burghoff: push record.

Tom Rowland: Anyway, on that note, we're gonna end this one. So Miles Burghoff, tell us how to tell us how to find you.

Miles Burghoff: You can find me on all the social media platforms or in the majority of them. Facebook, Instagram. You can generally find me by typing in, like, Miles Burghoff or Miles Sonar Burghoff on Instagram at Sonar Fishing on Twitter. But my my website is is sonarfishing.com and, of course, the the, Sweetwater platforms. Same thing. We're on all the major platforms. And then we're also on a really cool other than the TV, you know, portion, you know, we've got NBC Sports, Sportsman's Channel, and, you also have SunSports down in Florida. We also are on something called Waypoint TV, which, I mean, you guys know better than I do because you guys have, really embraced it. And that's a online streaming platform for for all fishing shows. Mhmm. Totally free. It is so awesome, and it's just it's like the Netflix of Netflix is actually the Waypoint TV of of, movies. Yeah.

Tom Rowland: That's a good way to think of it.

Miles Burghoff: Yeah. So you can find you can go to waypointtv.com and and check us out there.

Tom Rowland: Alright. Alright. Well, I'm sure everybody will. Alright, Miles, my friend. Good talking with you, and I look forward to picking up your new boat tomorrow and checking that out. So, we are out. Thank you, guys. Later.

Closing Notes From Tom

Tom Rowland: Hey, everybody. Thank you so much for listening to the show. I hope you got something out of that. Got just a little bit of news. We have started a weekly show that is designed to be up to the minute videos of what's happening this week, mostly in the Florida Keys, but also in other places that we fish as well. We'll be putting that out every week, and the best way to find that is to subscribe to the YouTube channel, youtube slash saltwater experience. Search saltwater experience on YouTube, subscribe to that channel, and you will get updates of when a new video is published. I've also figured out how to put the podcast on YouTube. Finally, A lot of people like to put that window behind other things they're working on and listen to the podcast while they are working. So we now have that for you, and there is a playlist called podcast. There's a playlist called weekly show. You can go and see all the new videos that we're putting up there. Started a new email address specifically for this show, and that is podcast@saltwaterexperience.com. Podcast@saltwaterexperience.com. Those emails come directly to me. I'll see every single one of them. So if you have comments, suggestions, ways we can make the show better, and particularly if you have suggestions of someone you would like to see me sit down with in the hunting world, in the fishing world, in the outdoor sports world, or just a motivational, inspirational character, or someone that can teach us all something. I'm very interested in your suggestions. So that's podcast at saltwaterexperience.com. You can get the podcast on iTunes, Stitcher, Spotify, SoundCloud, and we're also publishing it on the blog. The weekly show will be published on the blog too, but the best way is to go to YouTube, subscribe there, and you'll get it immediately when it's published. So until next week, thanks for listening. We'll see you soon.